Wit and Wisdom from a Wyoming Political Icon: Alan Simpson

00:00:07

 

Welcome to Winds of Change. I am your host, Emy diGrappa. Winds of Change is brought to you by Wyoming Humanities, where we discover the people, places and history of Wyoming. In today’s episode, we honor the remarkable life and enduring legacy of former U.S. senator Ellen K. Simpson of Wyoming, who passed away recently at the age of 93. Known affectionately as El he left a profound impact on both his home state and the entire nation through his dedicated public service and his distinctive approach to politics. I had the opportunity to visit with former Senator Al Simpson in my office July 2017. His remarks were true then, and they still are true today. Al Simpson was renowned for his sharp wit and his ability to engage across party lines, a rare trait that made him a beloved figure in Congress and among the voters back home right here in Wyoming. His forthrightness and folksy charm were not just endearing but were also powerful tools he wielded expertly in the political arena. So I hope you’ll stay tuned and listen to my interview and my tribute to Al Simpson. Thanks for listening. Senator Simpson served as a US senator from 1978 to 1996. Welcome, Senator Simpson.

 

00:01:49

 

It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

 

00:01:52

 

We are so fortunate to be able to talk to a senior statesman of Wyoming. And I feel privileged because you’ve done so much in your career. I could have read your whole bio, but then we’d be done with our interview because it’s so long. But I wanted to really talk to you about your passion for politics, why you entered into the political arena, why you think it’s important and just the future of our young generation and what they should be thinking about.

 

00:02:21

 

Well, you could launch into the usual stuff of love of state and love of country and wanting to do something and pay it back and pay it forward and all the rest. And that would be nice and that would be true, too. But for me, I had watched my dad serve as governor of Wyoming, and my mother was the first lady of Wyoming. They referred to her, and she was the first lady in every respect. And then dad ran for the U.S. senate, was elected, and I was married to a beautiful woman from Greybull, Wyoming, named Anne Schroll. For 62 years now, what I wanted to see is if public life had changed them, did it disrupt their marriage? Did it disrupt their parenthood? Did it mess them up? Because I’d seen plenty of guys who’d been in politics and lost their own respect and their livelihood and their marriages and their children. So I decided to get in and be A legislator. You want to know what you want to do? I couldn’t administer my way out of a paper bag. I couldn’t govern anything, but I knew I could legislate because I loved to draft things. I’d been a city attorney, been an assistant attorney general, and I could draft something and bring it to life and then bring it to the floor and amend it and have the floor debate and then take it to the other body, too, and then avoid a veto, and on and on and on. And that’s what I loved, and that’s what I did. So I was fortunate to be a legislator, and that was my bag.

 

00:04:03

 

So did it change your life and change. How did you cope with all the heavy work and the workload and having children?

 

00:04:11

 

Well, a sense of humor surely helps, and not taking yourself too seriously, and, you know, I used to get a little flack for that. Simpson’s not serious. No, sometimes he’s not. But he takes himself seriously and he takes his work seriously, and I do my homework seriously. And there’s a reason for me at least to work my head off and try to be the best I could is just for one simple reason. So you won’t make an ass of yourself. There’s no great star in the sky or following the golden chalice. No. And I loved the work. I loved the people. I love working guys with guys on the other side. And on my side, I loved controversy. I love controversy. I’m the master of lost causes, and I’ve achieved life’s ultimate goal at 85 with all the things I’ve done. The Iraq Study Group, the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform and the Common Good, and the American for Campaign Reform. On an America.

 

00:05:14

 

Now, that’s something to take to your grave, right? You can brag about that.

 

00:05:18

 

It just brightens your whole day.

 

00:05:21

 

What do you want to say to your grandchildren, to the young, younger generation? What should they be focused on in American politics and in global politics, too?

 

00:05:32

 

Well, don’t make fun of politics and don’t make fun of politicians, because guess what? Democracy is politics. You can’t have democracy without politics. So don’t sit in the lofty chair and say, I believe in America and democracy or the republic, whatever you want to talk about, and then hate politicians. They’re all slobs. They’re all crooks, they’re adulterers, they cheat, they steal, you know, on and on, which is a stereotype. That’s not true. I met so many, many fine people in political life, Democrats and Republicans and independents alike. So you just tell them, look, do the best you can. Stay in the middle of the road and plow as much as you can. Stay out of the furrows and the ruts on the left and the right. And if you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t, then do. And don’t just sit and bitch and whine and moan about your government. I mean, here Ann and I, at the age of 83, 82. That was a couple, three years ago, we didn’t like what was going on in our Park County Republican Party. So guess what? We ran for precinct committee man and woman. So now we’re precinct committee man and woman in District 25 1, which is where you start at the very beginning. And that’s how these other people took over the party. We were all asleep and then they worked their way in with some of the most asinine stuff. A person in our precinct put in a resolution that the sole purpose of marriage is procreation. Well, I waited till the end so I wouldn’t get too ringing. And I got up and I said about this resolution here. If anyone really believes that, you’re missing a hell of a lot of fun. Well, she clutched her shriveled bosom and fell back in her chair. And that was the end of that. I mean, honest to God. Or get rid of the 16th Amendment. What is that? It’s the income tax. What do you replace it with? Well, we’ll find the money to really, you know, it’s a trillion and a half a year. So I mean. Or move the capital to Shoshone. Well, I said, that’s brilliant. Well, it’s in the center of the state. Yeah, well, yeah, that’s what we’ll do. Of course, we’ll do it on the cheap. I mean, finally your mind snaps and you get in the game. So if you don’t like what’s going on, get in the game. But don’t come to me and whine about your government or the state or the state legislature. Give me a break. If you don’t like it, get in the game. I’m not very sympathetic to people that just have great ideas how to bitch.

 

00:08:11

 

Well, let me ask you this then. Is there room for a third party? Do you have to either be a Republican or a Democrat? Can you be an independent? What do you think about that?

 

00:08:22

 

Well, you can, and many people are. I think half the people of the United States, I think, are independent or register that way. And now, doesn’t surprise me. They’re fed up with the Democrats and they’re fed up with the Republicans. I mean, look what’s happening. Bizarre activities in both parties which were well portrayed in the primaries. The Bernie Sanders people are still smoked about Hillary, and up in our land, the Cruz people are still wondering what happened to them. They’re probably going to try to vote against Trump. I mean, I don’t know. I can’t figure it all out. All I know is, is that the parties will either have to come back from obscurity and absurdity and drop the social issues which are so bitterly, you know, gays and lesbians. We’re all God’s children. You don’t have to believe that, but we are. And it’s the law of the land. Or abortion. Abortion is one of the most horrible things I can imagine. I’m a man, so I can’t imagine it. But I say that it’s a deeply intimate and personal decision. So what is this business of a party, my party, which whole theme is government out of our lives, the precious right of privacy and the right to be left alone? That’s a great Wyoming philosophy. Well, then give up this other stuff where you’re intruding in everyone’s life. You can’t be a fake, and that’s hypocrisy and total fakery. We’re given lessons on morality while you’re diddling your secretary. I don’t need to hear that. Don’t give me any more of that. But first of all, this is a great group you represent the Wyoming Humanities Council. Go ahead.

 

00:10:09

 

And I was going to ask you about that. I was going to ask you, why do you think the humanities are so important in education?

 

00:10:17

 

Well, those are the softening agents of life. Politics is barbaric. I know better than anyone if that’s all your life is, just be in politics and just run around like a chicken with your head cut off, figuring, how do I get reelected? How do I get reelected without doing anything, without getting into too much controversy? By giving up pieces of myself all my life because I wanted to be a US Senator, wanted to be governor. So you give away pieces of your life and finally there’s nothing left of you. You have to have the softening agents of life. The softening agents are music and art and theater and poetry and the movies, if that’s what you want, or the visual arts or ballet or Tchaikovsky or Beethoven. I mean, the whole universe of stuff to take your mind off the ragged, rugged edges of life. And there’s nothing more ragged or rugged than a politician trying to spend the rest of his or her days, for one simple thing, trying to get reelected. So those are important. They’re important to my wife and myself and our children. And they have fortunately picked up on that. So that they never get too serious, Never get so bad that they don’t smell the flowers. You know, if you keep your nose to the grindstone rough and you keep it down there long enough, soon you’ll find there’s no such thing as birds that sing and books that Babel. Soon three things will your world compose. Just shoe the stone and your damn red nose. It’s a marvelous thing.

 

00:12:03

 

I love that. That’s beautiful.

 

00:12:05

 

I think I didn’t quite say it right, but it sounds good.

 

00:12:08

 

One time you said, let’s say in an interview in 2015, you said, Money’s dominance over politics isn’t merely one problem of many. Our country faces, it is the problem. Do you still believe that statement? Is it getting worse and what can we do?

 

00:12:26

 

Oh, it’s terrible. And, you know, I’m a lawyer, so you’re not supposed to remain highly critical of your highest court. But let me tell you, that Supreme Court decision on money was the worst, goofiest type of decision, because the First Amendment was for a person. It’s the only amendment to the Constitution that was for a person. And it was put in there to protect some guy cranking out seditious literature in the basement in Philadelphia and making fun of these guys. And they said, we can’t just. You can’t stop. But don’t forget, the Founding Fathers never allowed the media within 100 yards of the building. There’s a reason for that. They got their work done. It was contentious, it was passionate. Slap each other around, then go drink pot and then come back and do it again. And the media was not allowed to say anything, to even be there, so that they wouldn’t come out with a little peace like they do now. We have 247 picking a little piece. I knew as I did this. They follow you around all day and you get tired, and they’re waiting for one slip. They’re not waiting for anything positive. They’re waiting for one little gaff, and that’s the headline. Stupid would be another word. They’re not interested in clarity. They’re interested in conflict, confusion, and controversy. So that makes a real tough working arena.

 

00:13:51

 

I liked where you were going with that because you were talking about money’s dominance over politics.

 

00:13:58

 

It’s anonymous. The Supreme Court decision said that a corporation has the First Amendment right of speech that is so twisted because only an individual has that. But anyway, they did it. And then you can contribute as much as you want and you can do it in a clandestine or secret manner anonymously. That’s the destruction. Because the American people are pretty smart. They’re always been smarter than their politicians. American Wyomingites have always been smarter than their politics, politicians. That’s why we’re still here. But let me tell you, when the little guy says, I was going to give 10 bucks, but why should I give? I read in the paper the other day that this guy had a pack named, you know, snakes pack or whatever it is and got 25 million bucks. So they don’t need me anymore. And so they think, well, they must be corrupt. And it’s a perfect idea to think that you might be corrupt by getting 2 million bucks anonymously for. From somebody. For what was the reason for that person’s contribution? Access, of course. An advantage, of course. So if we kept fooling ourselves there. And so I’m working with Bill Bradley, Senator Bradley, and Democrats and Republicans alike to do something about campaign finance reform and get money out of the system, maybe even with the constitutional amendment.

 

00:15:20

 

Wow. I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

 

00:15:22

 

Well, you won’t appreciate it, but you just go ahead. If you were waiting for opprobrium and disgust, you get plenty of that every day. But if you’re waiting for praise, don’t hold your breath. Just go do something.

 

00:15:37

 

Just go do something. That’s great advice.

 

00:15:39

 

Get off your can and get in the game. Take part or get taken apart.

 

00:15:43

 

The beauty about the way you handle it is that you just let go of it. You don’t take people’s criticism and make it part of your body and your heart and soul. So I think that’s the hard thing when you get into public life is can you let it go?

 

00:16:01

 

Well, that’s the toughest part. And a good politician knows how to let it go. But the unfortunate part, their spouse and their children and their mother and father don’t have that same. I remember when I was in office, Ann. And I’d get my foot in it, which I did with regularity. And I have a 16 6E shoe. And Ann wouldn’t. She’d say, well, you brought it on yourself. You did. But then when our son ran for office and somebody boy, she was. She was like the eagle flying off the cliff with her talons. I said, Ann, you never protected me like that. No, but you. You got yourself. And this is our little boy.

 

00:16:42

 

That’s a good mom.

 

00:16:43

 

It is a good mom. A good woman, too.

 

Thank you. Thank you for listening. I executive producer Emmy Di Grappa. Winds of Change is brought to you by Wyoming Humanities, Our co hosts and all the people who generously share their stories and their time. For more information, go to thinkwhy.org subscribe and never miss a show.