Uncovering Hidden Outlaw Histories with Jackie Dorothy

"Our history is for our future." - Jackie Dorothy "Everyone has a story. You just sometimes have to dig to find the interesting nuggets." - Jackie Dorothy 

Hey there, history enthusiasts! Get ready to enjoy the unexpected twists and turns of outlaw history and family legends. Join me as we discover the world of outlaws, hidden histories and legends. We’re not just talking about the notorious outlaws you’ve heard of; we’re learning about surprising stories and historical figures. There were many opportunities for the daring and enterprising businessmen – the cattlemen, horse traders, store owners, saloon operators, farmers, coal miners and oil men who dared make this country their home. Stay tuned for an adventure through outlaw history that will leave you craving for more.

 

My special guest is Jackie Dorothy

Jackie Dorothy is an outlaw historian, speaker, media personality, journalist, and the host of the popular podcast “Pioneers of Outlaw Country.” Growing up between Wyoming and Alaska, Jackie’s personal family history, including her great grandfather’s ties to outlaws, sparked her passion for historical storytelling. With a background in radio and journalism, she combines oral and written history to bring engaging narratives to life, backed by facts and captivating storytelling. Her dedication to uncovering forgotten stories and preserving historical legacies shines through in her work, making her a knowledgeable guest on the topic of outlaw history and family legends.

 

In this episode, you will be able to:

  •  Uncover the tales of outlaw history and family legends.

  •  Explore the captivating allure of Wyoming’s rural lifestyle and discover why it continues to captivate the imagination of many.

  •  Learn the importance of engaging with local history through stories and unlock the power of connecting with the past.

 

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

  •  Listen to the Pioneers of Outlaw Country podcast on platforms such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, or at pioneersofoutlawcountry.com.

  • Check out Thermopolis for news and stories in the area.

  •  Explore the Wyoming Newspaper Project to discover firsthand accounts and historical articles that enrich the understanding of Wyoming’s history.

  •  Stay updated on Wyoming history events, such as Wyoming History Day, to support and engage with the enthusiasm of young historians and contribute to the preservation of Wyoming’s heritage for the future.

 

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Listen on all your favorite platforms and subscribe! As always leave a review if you enjoyed these stories and follow us on Instagram or visit the webpage of the Wyoming Humanities!

 

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00:00:01
             

Welcome to winds of change, brought to you by Wyoming humanities. I am your host, Emy DiGrappa. Winds of change is a unique focus on the people, places, and history of Wyoming. Please sign up for our newsletter by clicking on the link in the description. Learn more about us at Thinkwy.org where we have a brand new website and I think you’ll really enjoy it.         

 

00:00:24
             

And that’s t h I n k w y for wyoming.org dot. And today, my special guest is Jackie Dorothy. Jackie is an expert, expert outlaw historian, which I think is super cool. And we’re going to talk about that. She’s a speaker, a media personality, a journalist, and host of her very own popular podcast called Pioneers of Outlaw country.         

 

00:00:49
             

Welcome, Jackie. Thank you. And thank you for such a nice intro. It’s good to be here and just to visit and talk all things that I’m passionate about. History, I know and I, and I love.         

 

00:01:05
             

Well, first of all, I wanted to ask you about what makes you an outlaw historian?         

 

00:01:15
             

Well, I think we’ll have to go right back into when I was a kid, sitting around the dining room table with my great aunt, my grandma, and they got into an argument. It got so heated that they took us kids out of the room. But I still remember to this day my grandma and her big sister sitting across the table, my grandma taunting Aunt Grace and saying, daddy was an outlaw. And my aunt responding, no, he wasn’t. And their voices got louder and louder.         

 

00:01:46
             

And it was just my first introduction to our own personal family history, which was that my great grandfather was an outlaw and he married pearl. And she was an indian on the indian reservation. She was a Arapaho and Shoshone. And that was our family story, was part of the outlaw experience. And our family, my grandmother was proud of the fact.         

 

00:02:12
             

So my aunt might have been ashamed, but grandma thought it was cool that her dad ran around with Butch Cassidy and the hole in the wall game and knew all of those people and helped with a few robberies, as family legend would say. Oh, my gosh. So where did you grow up? I grew up between Wyoming and Alaska. So my dad’s parents homesteaded on the reservation, and my mom’s parents homesteaded up in a tiny community.         

 

00:02:43
             

And this is where I usually play. You know, when people say they know Alaska, it’s like, well, I’m from Salta, and if they know Salta, then I know they really know Alaska. It’s a small community outside of North Pole, Alaska, outside Fairbanks. So we were in the interior. And the thing that I always experienced growing up is that Alaska is a lot like Wyoming.         

 

00:03:04
             

Both very rural states, very big spaces and very small populations. Oh, yeah, very much like Wyoming. Wide open spaces, very few people. And once you get used to that, because I moved here from, well, I grew up in Colorado, and yes, there’s lots of mountains, there’s the Rocky Mountains. And it’s so interesting how different Wyoming is from Colorado, even though they’re both mountain states.         

 

00:03:37
             

But Colorado has a huge population. I mean, the front range is exploding. But Wyoming, no, we still have a really small population. I think it’s so interesting. So what do you think contributes to our small population?         

 

00:03:54
             

Why do you think that is? Oh, gosh, I don’t think I’ve ever thought about that question. I just always just enjoyed it that we were rural. I guess a good case is that we just hosted a bunch of international travel agents, and they’re from the big city, and they love the ease, they love the convenience of living in a city. They love getting away and escaping to Wyoming, experiencing this for a time.         

 

00:04:23
             

But they miss the big stores, the big restaurants and all of that. So I think what attracts people who stay permanently in Wyoming would be they want the peace that comes with being in a wide open area and avoiding those big crowds that people from metropolitan areas are used to. So I think that what keeps our population down right now, at least, is that we don’t have the convenience, but we do have the life, the lifestyle that many people are looking for, like you and myself. Yep, that’s true. So how did you start your podcast?         

 

00:05:01
             

What? Why a podcast? What was your, you know, you said you’re. You’re a journalist, and what made you fall in love with podcasting?         

 

00:05:12
             

Well, I first got led into journalism in 2003 when I moved back to Wyoming and my parents were here and I was looking for a job. And so I got a part time job as the weekend dj at KTRZ. So I was 93.1 Sunny FM, and I loved it. It was my dream job. I would get up at four in the morning on Saturdays, go in to this little studio in Riverton, Wyoming, and I would.         

 

00:05:41
             

It was right at the time when they were making the transition from real to real to digital, so it was kind of brand-new technology. And I would soundtrack and make, I would do my live intros and everything from that time on, but then I would soundtrack all of the weekend, and then I would get to drive around and listen to myself on the radio, critique it, figure out what to do better. And so that was my introduction to radio and to media. I liked it so much that that led me to going to Central Wyoming college and getting my degree in electronic broadcasting. And I was an intern at Wyoming Humanities Council.         

 

00:06:18
             

I still kept my radio job, and that continued to be my first love. So when podcasting started to boom, and I kept looking at it, kept wanting to do it, and I wasn’t even sure what format. I’m good at interviews, I would sit down and I had a radio show. It was called Fremont Voices, and it was on 88.1 FM, which was a college station. And so I kind of assumed that I would do another interview.         

 

00:06:46
             

Well, when I started looking at history, started kind of exploring what the options, I found that narrative worked better for what I wanted to tell. So I would interview people, get their stories, and then plop them into history and back up what they said with written facts. So you take the oral history, you take the written fact, and then I would combine it into, like, an essay, and then I put it on the radio, and then I would put sound effects and music and make it move and make it fun. And so that’s how I kind of came up with pioneers of outlaw country, teamed up with Hot Springs Pioneer association, and they have been a big supporter, and they’ve funded it. So that we can do.         

 

00:07:32
             

We’re now on episode. Well, we’re in the twenties. I can’t even remember exactly, but we’ve been working together to get the stories of Hot Springs County on air. But I’m definitely expanding across the borders and been talking to other museums and associations that want their stories to be told in a fun, engaging manner. So that is the long story of how I got into podcasting but gives you the background.         

 

00:08:01
             

Yeah, I think that’s so interesting, because I think one of my big struggles when I started podcasting was how fast the technology was changing. And, you know, since you started in radio, you had to use an audio board, a mixer, and then going from that into now you can plug your mic into your USB plugin, and it’s just like, it’s always changing. And it’s become interesting for me because I feel like I started in one place, and now it’s just so much different. Like, people podcast on their phones, for example, or from anywhere. And that just, it does blow your mind.         

 

00:08:56
             

You think of the technology, like you were saying. I mean, at PBS, we started with what was beta tapes, and that was sort of like a fancy VHS. And then we went to minidisc, and then it was like all of a sudden, things just started clicking I mean, they used the beta tapes for, I think, 20 years with the real to reel, and then all of a sudden, mini disk lasted less than a year. And then you were on floppy disks and then you were to the CDs and now you’re digital. And it’s just when you watch that happen in real time, it just, it really does blow you away.         

 

00:09:33
             

And it’s been fun to watch, but it’s challenging sometimes to keep up with the technology. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that, I guess that’s my own little personal struggle that I have to keep changing things or keep learning new things and, you know, just stay on, on that learning track all the time, always climbing up the next learning curve. And now you have AI.         

 

00:09:58
             

Oh, my gosh. Right? Oh. I showed up with a GoPro one time, and I was looking at my GoPro and it’s like, this feels still new, and it was like a number three and they’re on 13 or whatever. And it’s just, it’s you definitely.         

 

00:10:15
             

I think that if you’re going to concentrate on keeping up with technology, you’ll lose the story. So what we have decided personally here at our marketing company and with the projects I’m working on is that it’s working. I bought a podcaster board, so I do still have the old school, a little bit with the audio board. I actually edit my podcast in Edius, which was a version of Canopus, which I learned at PBS. And so I was just like, I don’t feel like learning a new program.         

 

00:10:44
             

I will edit it and video, and if I ever want to go back and take my stories and put video on it, it’s all ready to go. And so that is our own little battle of how we’re going to be doing it is like, I’m not going to try to keep up with technology. I’m just going to worry about making sure the story is engaging, the story is exciting, and using that as our tool, as our best tool is our imagination. Well, that’s true. Wow.         

 

00:11:14
             

Very well said. So how do you pick your history stories? What draws you to one subject matter or another?         

 

00:11:24
             

Well, it’s funny you should say that because it’s different things. I go down a lot of rabbit holes. The first series that I did, I mostly wanted to feature pioneers, and the people I highlighted were ones I had no idea when I first started the project. I didn’t know. Like, for instance, our very first episode is Tim McCoy.         

 

00:11:44
             

I didn’t know who Tim McCoy was. And it was like, okay, he owns Eagle’s Nest here in Thermopolis. And that was about the extent, to my knowledge, of him. And then when I dived in and I started to discover that this guy was like one of the top four western stars in America, that he was a silent movie star and made the transition to talkies, he he one of his movies. And I thought this kind of illustrates it for us modern western watchers for the movies is that he headlined in a movie that was John Wayne’s first movie.         

 

00:12:21
             

So John Wayne was the minor character and Tim McCoy was the big one. So you have this guy in our backyard that history has forgotten about, kids have forgotten about, and now there’s this boom, there’s this interest in him. And in fact, Margaret Cole had written a book about him and she’s an author. New York bestseller, that’s coming and doing a presentation on Tim McCoy. So there’s been this revival.         

 

00:12:46
             

And those are how I discovered the stories, is that someone will tell me, like, the second one is Walt Putney. Who’s Walt Putney? He was a minor outlaw in the hole in the Wall Gang, but during his time, he was more well-known than Butch Cassidy. His nickname was Watt the Watcher, and he and Tom McCoy were the lookouts for the hole in the wall game. And their names, when you google them, show up in the newspaper more than Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid and Harvey Logan.         

 

00:13:17
             

And they were well liked in our area, but again, they were forgotten. So I think that a lot of times what I’m looking for are the little known stories, not the popular ones. I have yet to do one on Butch Cassidy, but I do want to interview his great nephew, who we know well, Bill Bennison, and just kind of showcase those stories of Wyoming. I went into the classroom, this is a perfect example is that I went to our local school and was talking about local history, and the teacher said, our history is boring. There’s nothing here.         

 

00:13:52
             

I started to show them what our history was, the stories, what we had, and now they’re on board. They are teaching. All of our kids from the fourth through 8th grade are involved with history, and not just Wyoming history, but Thermopolis and hot Springs county. And I want to see that for other areas where people, like, shrug and say, well, we’re not that interesting. And it’s like, no, everyone has a story.         

00:14:19
             

You just sometimes have to dig to find the interesting nuggets. So when you’re talking to people and how do you open the door so that they trust you and want to talk to you?         

 

00:14:35
             

I think number one for me is to listen. Listen to what their passions are, listen to what their interests are, and then allow them that moment, and then introduce them to the stories that are relevant to them. For instance, we have basketball culture in both our area and on the reservation. And what I have found is that we have basketball stars that have come from this small mining community called jibo. And so you introduce them to that.         

 

00:15:08
             

You get the teachers to go on field trips. And another technique I have discovered is that you’ll take them to somewhere like, again, Geebo is a good example. It’s a coal mine where there’s nothing there. But at one point, it was the largest town in Hot Springs county. So I would bring an old picture and point and find where it was and hold it up, and the kids would then see what there is today.         

 

00:15:32
             

And that was a huge tool and something I recommend everyone use. Get the old pictures in side by side, compare, and it starts getting them excited, engaged. They need to relate, and they need to connect to history, and that goes for all ages. And so I would start with their interests. We even had a math class come to the museum, and they were studying percentages.         

 

00:15:58
             

And so the teacher and I worked it out, and we arranged a math lesson based on hotel rates, what they are today, what they were back in 1920, and then they looked at the percentage and even added taxes and taught them that. But the kids were out of the classroom. They were in the museum. They were seeing pictures of all the old hotels that used to be in our community and where they are. And it really did spark an interest.         

00:16:25
             

And, you know, the kids had fun because they complained they didn’t have enough time in the museum. And that’s a good complaint. Absolutely. Good job. I love that project.         

 

00:16:36
             

So let’s talk about the new one that you’re doing right now, which is based on Owen Wister and the Virginian. How did that one come about? That’s so cool.         

 

00:16:50
             

It came about because I found a thesis at the Hot Springs County Museum written by sister Noreena Kras. She had written it, and it was called folklore of Thermopolis. And I was interested when I was flipping through, because I found some Tim McCoy stories that we had never heard before. And I thought, well, this is cool. And then I started reading on, and I was like, what?         

 

00:17:14
             

Because she was writing first person account stories about Owen Wister being in our area, and you mostly think of the medicine bow connection, that he was up in that area, and you discover that medicine Bow was actually a short trip. He went there when he was staying at Deer Creek in 1885 to pick up fish and a lawyer from the train station for his host, Frank Walcott. So he had come down, visited, and that was the first opening section of the Virginia. But after that time, he came back for visits summer after summer, a total of over 15 years. And most of his time was spent at Fort Washakie, the Wind rivers, and right here in Thermopolis at the Owl Creek region.         

 

00:18:03
             

He was here to camp, to fish, to hunt, and to get away from the city because he was a Harvard student who had a nervous breakdown, and his doctor had said, you need to do the camp cure, which was to come to Wyoming. So, Wyoming, he was a tourist. He wasn’t here for any other reason but to be a tourist. So when I found this first person account, I started really reading into it and thought, well, this will make a great podcast episode. Well, I will say that I didn’t stop at one, and we are still producing.         

 

00:18:36
             

I’ve talked to authors, I have some great stories, everything from. I discovered that when he came and brought his kids to visit, they brought a waltzing mouse. And it’s like, what is a waltzing mouse? I went down a rabbit hole and it was a fun little story that I did an episode on my podcast. Well, okay, so what is name that podcast?         

 

00:18:56
             

Cause everyone has to go listen and ask the question, what is a waltzing mouse? We all need to ask that question. I wanna know, but I don’t wanna, you know, blow the podcast. I want people to go to the podcast and listen to that episode. That is so cool.         

 

00:19:16
             

What was. It’s pioneers. Oh, go ahead. Well, yeah, tell me the name. The name of the podcast is pioneers.         

 

00:19:26
             

Okay. On pioneers of outlaw country, the name of the episode is PeesShee, the dancing mouse. Okay. And you will be able to find it really easy, and I will give this hint, too, about it is that it was the most popular pet in America beside goldfish, before World War one. World War one cut off the supply of these dancing mice, and they were no longer available for the kids.         

 

00:19:53
             

But almost all these households across America had dancing mice, and I’ve never heard of them. And it was just a common theme. Oh, my gosh, that’s crazy. I even found children books about them. Yes.         

00:20:11
             

Then you dive in. I mean, like I said, you go into these rabbit holes. Here I’m doing a story on Owen Wister, and next thing I know, I’m reading kids books about dancing mice and learning about this pet that nobody knew about. And Peeshee visited Jackie, Wyoming, because they had a cabin out by moose area. Owen, Wisconsin, Mister dead.         

00:20:32
             

And that’s where he brought his children. And it was the best summer of their lives, was coming to Wyoming. Okay, well, I’m not a fan of mice, but I am going to listen to that podcast.         

 

00:20:46
             

Me and mice do not get along and definitely don’t want them in my house. But no, a wild mouse. No thank you. I’ve had a few encounters with them myself that I would rather forget. Yeah, they’re icky icky.         

 

00:21:01
             

And that is just the one rabbit hole I went to when you start the podcast, because I don’t know how many people you be in are familiar with the Virginian. Gary Cooper. It was his very first movie that he starred into that was a talking movie, and that’s what propelled him to stardom. And so I was able to include as the first episode of the series the radio show that Gary Cooper starred in. And that is the perfect introduction to what the Virginian is about, what it portrayed.         

 

00:21:33
             

And then I highlighted some people that may or may not have been the inspiration for different characters, because Owen Wister, his Virginian, to him was the ideal cowboy. He was a figment of Owens imagination, but he was a composite parts of all these different cowboys. And one of them was David Pickard. And it’s very definitely possible that he would have met him, but he definitely heard the story, because what Owen did is he would sit around the campfires or in the cabins late into the night listening to the tall tales of all the cowboys and these young guys, and they would share their stories. One of the stories was about this baby prank and everyone in Hot Springs county.         

 

00:22:21
             

And, I mean, I looked through the records and they all agreed that it was David Pickard who was a french Canadian that had homesteaded across Bridger Creek. And David Pickard’s, his story is fascinating, and I’ve had the privilege of visiting with his granddaughters. And that’s the other thing about our history, by the way, that I find exciting. I’m not talking about his great grandfathers. Like, in my case, it was my great grandfather that was robbing or doing whatever he did to get his money.         

 

00:22:54
             

It was my dad’s grandpa. And that really shows you how close Wyoming’s history, how close those outlaws are to us. And the other reason I want to share their stories is the more I dive into the stories of people like David Pickard and the outlaws, is that, were they really outlaws? That’s the question. Because they did not break as many laws as the lawmen who pursued them or made them outlaws.         

 

00:23:23
             

Jim McCloud is another example of an outlaw who, all these years, I’ve heard of him as this bad guy. He robbed a safe, but then you find out that he was a homesteader. He had this land. He lost his land to these people. They stole it through the courts, and the money from the sale of his property that he never got was in the safe that he went and robbed.         

 

00:23:52
             

So who’s the outlaw? And those are the questions that I think people need to look at and ask. Oh, every day. Right? Every day.         

 

00:24:04
             

Right. I mean, it still happens. That’s where history comes.         

 

00:24:10
             

History comes right home to where we are today. Right. And that is so cool that you are drawing those connections, especially for kids who think that history is something old and, you know, dusty and they can’t relate to it. Actually, history is now, and yesterday is history.         

 

00:24:35
             

So tell me about your native roots again. So you, you basically grew up in Alaska. Sorry. But you spent a lot of time on the Wind river reservation with your grandmother.         

 

00:24:51
             

Yes. So what I’ll have to preface is say that I always say my parents were gypsies, so I spent a lot of time in Alaska, and I spent a lot of time in Wyoming, so I had to sit down and actually. So every three years, my parents would pick up and move. So we were always on the move, going back and forth between the different areas. And I spent my teenage years in Oregon.         

 

00:25:13
             

So it’s just. It’s been eclectic childhood. I’m very grateful for it. I think it’s what taught me my love of history is because a lot of times we were going down routes, like traveling up the alkan and seeing that for yourself. So my dad was born and raised.         

 

00:25:32
             

He was born in Fort Washakie. My grandmother was. She was born to Pearl license. Pearl license. And Frank Miller.         

 

00:25:44
             

And so Frank Miller is the one that the family says, and I found it in history books to support it, that the license knew Butch Cassidy, and he married a young lady named Pearl, and when he was about 40 years old. And so my grandmother knew her dad until she was eight years old when he passed away. And then she was sent to St. Stephen’s. And so she had that experience, the boarding school and the.         

 

00:26:16
             

For her, in the 1930s, St. Stephen’s had gone from teaching and embracing the culture. At that time, the nuns and the priests who were in charge believed that they needed to teach the culture for these children to succeed. They needed to teach them the white man’s way. And my grandmother made a decision not to speak Arapaho or to follow the Arapaho ways during that time.         

 

00:26:41
             

But her little brother was raised with his grandparents, who only spoke Arapaho. So my uncle Jackie was fluent in the culture and fluent in the language. And so you had these two siblings that had two different experiences growing up, and it all came from losing her dad at such a young age. And then my dad was raised in Riverton. His dad, by the way, ended up here.         

 

00:27:06
             

He was a farmer from Douglas. The Dorothy’s tret were always farmers since the time they left England. And he ended up here after World War two, because they were opening up sections of the reservation to homestead on. He met my grandmother, and eventually they did get their homestead on the reservation. So that kind of gives you the family history and how it all ties in together.         

 

00:27:31
             

But my grandmother, despite everything, was always proud of being arapaho. She was also proud of being Shoshone, because even though we are part of the enrolled in the arapaho tribe, a lot of our blood is also lysonous and Shoshone. And like so many others, it becomes a mixture because we’re spoon hunters, which means Ogallala Sioux. And then we throw in on the lizness side, the French trapper. So you definitely get.         

 

00:27:58
             

It’s fun to dive into genealogy, and I grew up with the genealogy that was this stuff that grandma loved to do was trace the roots back and prove who we were bloodline wise. Wow. You’re so fortunate that you had a grandmother that did that, that paid attention and was really interested in doing that. I mean, so many people, their history is so lost, and they don’t have a connection to where their parents or their grandparents originally came from. And you probably find that maybe not so much in Wyoming.         

 

00:28:42
             

I really do think that’s one of the things that Wyoming knights are really proud of, is that they have. How long have you lived here? How long, you know, what generation are you? What? They really like to dig into that, and we.         

 

00:29:03
             

It is so true. Yeah, it is true. And they like to be proud that they’ve been here for five generations, or like you, you’re 7th generation, correct? Yes. Yeah.         

 

00:29:20
             

But we traced it all the way back. Who climbs up in long Walker on our family tree to where? Say that again. Their names were climbs up in Long Walker, and they had Matilda, who married, and she was our full blooded Arapaho, who married spoon hunter, who started the spoon hunter line on the wind river reservation. Oh, so and so everybody gets relate to everybody.         

 

00:29:48
             

Yeah, everybody’s related. It’s been fun, and I’ve been very fortunate, yes, meeting relatives all the time. And it’s on all sides of our family, because my mom, her family are vultures. And I just recently met here in Thermopolis, another vault. And it’s like.         

 

00:30:05
             

So we’ve been teasing each other that we’re distant cousins. And it’s just, it’s. I would definitely. I used to call myself like the Heinz 57, you know, because the melting pot, we’re all different. Like, America is full of so many different cultures.         

 

00:30:22
             

And that’s what’s been fun about this podcast, is being able to really dive into the different ethnic groups that made up Wyoming. It fascinated me that David Pickard was a French Canadian. We have Walt Punteney, the other outlaw I was talking about. He was from a rich family back east, and his descendants was French. And you have all these different cultures, and they come together here in this remote area.         

 

00:30:49
             

And at that point, there was no boundaries between race. I mean, I’ve been reading stories where we did have people with African American descendancy, and they were accepted as well as anybody else here in Thermopolis, because that’s what you did. You just banded together. A cowboy was a cowboy, you had a job to do, and you’d have people coming in and confused by why is everybody sitting at the same table? And you didn’t have the prejudice that you would find in the bigger areas.         

 

00:31:21
             

So I guess that goes back to our same question. When we talk about rural areas and where people are forced to band together, you forget about your differences. Who’s Catholic, who’s Protestant? That doesn’t matter. What matters is that you’re here together and you have a mission, and you have a job to do, and it’s about survival as well.         

 

00:31:41
             

Well, that’s true, because everybody has to pitch in and help each other out, because the resources of help is just your neighbor and the people you know. And even where I live, and good luck calling an electrician around here, you better learn how to fix it yourself. So, no, that’s what makes history so fun, is that you look at it through. Yes, we’re looking through it through our modern lens, but if we can step back and look at it from what they were experiencing, what they saw, I think that would help also people connect to history and understand why certain things were done, why people felt like they did. And you find heroes in unexpected places as well.         

 

00:32:31
             

I think Butch Cassidy and his gang, they had a code of conduct. I found a quote by Ed Farlow where he said, one of the gang members, Mike Brown, looked at him and said, we haven’t sunk so low to steal from working men yet. They only stole from the rich. You know, the train robberies that they did. I mean, you hear about like, Bill Carlisle, but it happened before his time, where they were not going in.         

 

00:32:57
             

They weren’t the hardened criminals that you found after the civil war, the Jesse James. Yes, they actually were brutal, but these were just young cowboys that felt forced into outlawry. And then when they did rob a bank or something, they were very generous with their money. There’s a story like a butch Cassidy where he was at this widow’s house and she was upset. And he asked her what was wrong.         

 

00:33:23
             

She said, the tax collector is coming. I owe him dollar 75. I can’t pay him. And he’s like, don’t worry about it. And he gave her the money.         

 

00:33:31
             

And so when the tax collector came to repossess her home, she was able to pay him off. Well, when that tax collector got back to town, did he have the money on him? Well, mysteriously, he got robbed. So you see these scenarios where they saw themselves as Robin Hoods and they were doing good deeds and they were having fun doing it, too, because they love to play. Oh, my gosh, what a great podcast.         

 

00:33:58
             

I love it, I love it, love it. Tell our audience where they can find you. All the places that they can find your podcast.         

00:34:09
             

They can find us at pioneersofoutlaw country. We do have a website, pioneersofoutlawcountry.com, or anywhere that you listen to. Podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeart. We’re on all of those platforms. And if you do listen and enjoy what you hear, I would love it if you could leave a review, a written review, and just tell me if there are any stories you want to hear or you have any leads.         

 

00:34:35
             

Just recently we did a story for Cowboy State daily on Wildcat Sam. And those are the kinds of stories I think people are hungry for, characters of the old day and what they did and just having fun and enjoying, because history doesn’t always have to be serious. Yes, it was full of traumatic events, but it was also full of wonderful things that happened and exciting events and common people that were just trying to make a living. And their stories are worth telling, too. A really popular one that I did, and it was just a written story in a magazine, was about sourdough pancakes, and it was about the or, I’m sorry, it was hotcakes, not pancakes.         

 

00:35:20
             

When you’re out on Roundup and it was the old family recipe, and she just rattled it off. And I had to put it down into format for a recipe, but included the story of how her dad, who was Raymond Pickard, and this is David Pickard’s granddaughter, was talking about these hotcakes that they ate on Roundup and every time they were on the ranch. And those stories people love and like to listen to. Oh, my gosh. And you got the recipe?         

 

00:35:50
             

Yes, yes. I can send it to you. I need it because I’m baking sourdough bread now. I love it. What I liked about it, she even told how to make the starter and how not to run the starter because I told her, yeah, I’ve never made sourdough.         

 

00:36:09
             

And she goes, how is that possible? I was like, I never was taught. I never really sat down and thought about it. So those are the kind of the treasures that you find when you’re doing. And it was unexpected.         

 

00:36:21
             

We were there to talk about her grandfather, his connection to the outlaws and Butch Cassidy. It had nothing to do with sourdough hotcakes. And that was what I left with the memory I have and what I’ll always cherish is now I know. And I have that recipe that I can share with others that will continue to pass down through the generations. Oh, my gosh.         

 

00:36:43
             

Love it, love it, love it, love it. That is so cool. Jackie, you’re doing such great work. I am so excited to listen about the dancing mouse, but now I have to, you know, really listen about the sourdough pancakes because I make sourdough bread all the time. Love it, love it, love it.         

 

00:37:02
             

So. And it’s so healthy for you and. Well, that’s good to hear. It is. It really was simple ingredients, and where I put that was in.         

 

00:37:13
             

It’s. I help with the Thermopolis tourism. And so we put together the Thermopolis magazine, and you’ll find all these history stories. We’re getting ready to release our next one, which talks about Thermopolis outlaw beginnings and just. It’s been a fun adventure, just kind of seeing what stories we can come up with next.         

 

00:37:35
             

And there’s so many. I mean, I have a list. When you’re talking about the podcast, the problem I have is, what stories do I do next? Who am I going to do? I wanted to do a story on Bill Carlisle, and I didn’t realize how much information there was out there on him.         

 

00:37:50
             

So it’s like my one little podcast might end up being a little bit more on him as I dive into his story. We actually have in the American Heritage center an interview with this gentleman bandit, his voice on tape, talking about the times that he robbed those four trains in Wyoming. He was the last train robber here that we had. And they have his voice. Those are the kind of treasures we have that.         

 

00:38:18
             

Who knew? So do you have to do a lot of digging, like going to state archive, the state archive museum, or, you know, where’s all this stuff kept? I mean, how do you find it? You know, I usually start with the Wyoming history project or, I’m sorry, the Wyoming newspaper project. And so I believe it’s wyomingspaper.org.         

 

00:38:45
             

And I have an idea of what I want to research, and I’ll start researching it. And sometimes as I’m reading those old newspapers, I’ll see another article over here. And I was like, well, that’s interesting. So I’ll save it, and then I will put it in a folder for later. And then when later comes, I’ll start working on those stories.         

 

00:39:03
             

So a lot of it is first person accounts. A great story on our podcast. My favorite, actually, is Tom O’Day and the Flying saucer. And that’s about a shootout in 1903 downtown thermopolis. Great story.         

 

00:39:18
             

I loved it. Well, the first time I ever read it was one person’s account, and I wrote it faithfully based on that account. Well, then I got to wondering, was it in the newspaper? Did this get picked up? And I went into the newspaper, and I found firsthand accounts of this gunfight and what people thought of Tom O’Day, which was actually very favorable.         

 

00:39:40
             

They were all cheering for him through this gunfight that made headlines across Wyoming. So that reshaped the whole story that I did. It gave me more detail, more in depth. And then I looked at where they got their information, was able to go down these little lines, and the story became richer for that research that was done. And research can take a long time, and that’s where I think we lose a lot of people.         

 

00:40:07
             

And what sets the story apart, because I’m not just going to regurgitate what I find on the Internet, because I have found stories. A great example of this is that Butch Cassidy at Andersonville, outside of Thermopolis, shot a guy in the leg. And it was an accident. He was trying to wake up this guy that was sleeping, whiskey Tom was sleeping in a chair. So he shot at him.         

 

00:40:32
             

And when he didn’t wake up, he got the bullet closer and closer and then suddenly shot him in the leg. That woke him up. And Butch felt so bad about it that he paid for the doctor bill. The story was that it was whiskey Tom. There was another Tom in town, that his name was Irish Tom.         

 

00:40:50
             

And one person made a mistake, switched the names, assumed that that person in the chair was Irish Tom. And so that added to Irish Tom’s legend. But it wasn’t true. Two separate guys. So that’s why I definitely encourage research.         

 

00:41:06
             

Don’t just repeat what, especially what you find on the Internet and go back to the first person accounts, because a good history book has the footnotes. Go to the footnotes, go to the stories, and you’ll find out little details that maybe that historian didn’t include in their book because it wasn’t, it didn’t matter to the story they were telling, but it matters to your story. What a great teacher you are. I mean, just, just learning how to do that and has taken a lot of love, passion and time. So I really appreciate your time today and it’s been such an honor talking to you.         

 

00:41:39
             

Well, it’s been a pleasure as well. I will give one last plug. Wyoming history day just happened this past week, and we had over 120 kids from around Wyoming show up with their history projects, and we’re hoping to see that number increase. And I’m just excited to see their enthusiasm. And that’s what we’re here for, is for the future.         

 

00:42:03
             

Our history is for our future. So. And the kids are our future. That is a great vision. That’s such a great goal to have.         

 

00:42:11
             

Absolutely. Thank you so much.         

 

00:42:19
             

Thank you for listening. I’m executive producer Emy DiGrappa. Winds of Change is brought to you by Wyoming humanities, our co-hosts and all the people who generously share their stories and their time. For more information, go to thinkwy.org subscribe and never miss a show.