Tori Murden McClure: First Woman To Row Solo Across The Atlantic Ocean

Tori Murden McClure is no stranger to trail blazing. 

Tori Murden McClure is the President of Spalding University in Louisville, Kentucky. Tori may be best known as the first woman and first American to row solo and unassisted across the Atlantic Ocean. Also she was the first woman and first American to travel over land to the geographic South Pole skiing 750-miles from the ice-shelf to the pole. Tori has worked as chaplain of Boston City Hospital, as policy assistant to the Mayor of Louisville, director of a shelter for homeless women, and has worked with the boxer and humanitarian Muhammad Ali.  

Tori is an accomplished mountaineer and has completed major climbs on several continents. Tori is a graduate of Smith College. She holds a Masters in Divinity from Harvard Divinity School, a Juris Doctorate from the University of Louisville Brandeis School of Law, and a Masters of Fine Arts in Writing from Spalding University.  

Though many titles fit — athlete, adventurer, chaplain, lawyer, university administrator — it’s hard to put just one to her name. Her diverse career accomplishments include working as a chaplain at a Boston hospital, as the director of a Kentucky-based women’s shelter, as a policy assistant in the Louisville Mayor’s Office, and as the first full-time employee of the Muhammad Ali Center, a nonprofit cultural hub dedicated to celebrating the boxer. 

Her memoir, “A Pearl in the Storm: How I Found My Heart in the Middle of the Ocean,” published in 2009, became the basis of the stage musical, “Row.” The musical premiered in the summer of 2021 at the prestigious Williamstown Theatre Festival in Massachusetts. 

More on Tori:

President Mclure of Spalding University

 

Womens History Month | Adventurer Tori Murden Mclure (video)

 

Womens History Month | Adventurer Tori Murden Mclure (article & photos)

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Emy DiGrappa (00:00):

Hello. My name is Emmy DiGrappa. Each week we bring you stories, asking our guests the question why. We learn about passion, purpose, and the human experience. Brought to you by Wyoming Humanities with the generous support of the Wyoming Community Foundation. This is What's Your Why.

(00:38):

Today, we are talking to Tori Murden McClure. She is an explorer, author, and president of Spalding University, but I want to say that Tori is perhaps best known as the first woman and first American to row about boat solo across the Atlantic Ocean. Welcome, Tori.

Tori Murden McClure (00:58):

Thanks for having me.

Emy DiGrappa (00:59):

Well, as I was reading your bio, I was so intrigued because of your diverse career that you've worked as a chaplain at a hospital, that you've been a director of a woman's shelter, a policy assistant in the Louisville Mayor's office, and the first full-time employee of Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville. That is really diverse. And so I thought, "Wow." Well first I want to know, where did you grow up?

Tori Murden McClure (01:27):

So I was born in Florida, but it was not my fault. That's where my parents were at the time, but I grew up in sort of Connecticut, Pennsylvania, east side of Pennsylvania, west side of Pennsylvania, and moved to Kentucky to take care of a grandmother who had Alzheimer's and went to high school in Kentucky. And when folks in Kentucky, sad but true, ask you where you went to school, they're not asking where you went to college. They want to know what high school you went to because that puts you in a particular socioeconomic box. And I came here to go to high school so it counts, almost like I'm a native.

Emy DiGrappa (02:06):

Almost like you're a native. That is really interesting that it's not where you went to college because I think most everywhere, but I get that, I get that, especially living in Wyoming, and it's kind of like Wyoming Nights all know exactly where people are from just by the number on their license plate.

Tori Murden McClure (02:26):

Right. Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (02:27):

It means something if you have a low number on your license plate and if you're a newcomer, then you have a much higher number, right?

Tori Murden McClure (02:36):

Right. Your cache gets lower.

Emy DiGrappa (02:38):

Right.

Tori Murden McClure (02:39):

Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (02:39):

Right. So you went to high school in Kentucky?

Tori Murden McClure (02:43):

Yes. And then went on to Massachusetts, Smith College for my undergrad and then worked for a year and then went to divinity school at Harvard and then worked for a while and ran a homeless shelter, shelter for homeless women and now we call them people without homes, but in those days we called them homeless people. And as I was doing that, I was realizing all the sort of economic and other issues that were putting these women on the street. And so I went to law school to learn the language of the enemy and it was really about trying to change the policies that were causing folks to be so economically challenged that they lost housing. And so that's what sent me to law school.

Emy DiGrappa (03:29):

I was a single mom at one time and that's what I wanted to do was go to law school, but the time, it was just such a huge burden, but it was for the same issue. It's like, "How do I protect women? What happens to women? And when they get divorced, what happens to them?" And there's just so many issues that are just in the background that people, and there's social issues, but they're also just things that happen because you're a woman. It's kind of the way it's set up for women. And that was one of the things I wanted to ask you because of all the careers and things that you've done, but you're also very competitive. You're a competitor and you've been an athlete. What inspired your athleticism?

Tori Murden McClure (04:15):

That's a multi-pronged question in the sense that I grew up with a brother who's intellectually disabled and a lot of my back country desires for expeditions and experiences really grew out of the fact that I was never able to really protect my brother from the neighborhood bullies, whomever they may have been. But as I progressed through school and we moved quite a lot as I was growing up, we moved 13 times as I was growing up. And so I learned very quickly that you couldn't really gain friends by being the smartest kid in the room, but you could gain friends by being athletically competitive or successful. And so that became an outlet for me. I have a much stronger intellectual drive than I do an athletic drive, but it was a way to make friends and fit in. And then as I grew older, and of course choosing to go to an all women's college like Smith, you really get steeped in the history of education for women and the history of justice and injustice.

(05:23):

Divorce is a bad economic move for men as well. There's not a winning proposition on either side, but unhappiness and dysfunction need to come to an end. And so there are no winners in that scene. But one of the issues that, I was the first generation to benefit from Title IX and Title IX really getting some teeth. Now, many of us have a huge misconception when it comes to Title IX and athletics. As it was originally conceived, Title IX had nothing to do with women's athletics and women being excluded from the playing field. It was really women being excluded from graduate programs. You could not be a college professor unless you had a master's or a doctorate and more likely a doctorate and women just weren't being admitted to doctoral programs and terminal degree programs. And it was Bernie Sanders and some other folks who really just started to lobby and cause a ruckus and sue people to try to be admitted into these upper level graduate programs at prestigious schools and less prestigious schools.

(06:38):

And the fact that I'm a university president is far more related to Title IX than the fact that I was a college athlete and certainly I was a college athlete at Smith. There was never any problem with women being allowed to have access to the playing field at Smith College. But today, we are seeing probably the biggest downturn I guess for women's equity in athletics and that is with a name, image, and likeness changes. Now I was on the board of Governors of the NCAA when NIL was voted through and I recognized this was going to be bad for women, but so many state legislatures were lobbying and changing laws and making it a requirement that young people could benefit from their names, their images, or their likenesses in the sort of economic venue. And there's no question that there are a few women benefiting from NIL, but mostly it's young men benefiting from name, image, and likeness being turned into a commodity.

(07:39):

And I don't know how this is going to shake out. I think college athletics, as we knew it just a couple of years ago, is at an end. We've always had kind of semi-professional athletic teams attached to academic institutions, but now the veil of amateurism is quickly being pulled back and now we have professional athletic programs attached to academic institutions at the division one level and possibly even a little bit at the division two level. Institutions like the one I serve, Spalding University in Louisville, Kentucky, we're a division three school, as is Smith College and lots of the private liberal arts institutions all tend to be division three, which means we don't offer athletic scholarships.

(08:28):

And so it would be rare, not unheard of but rare, for one of our student athletes to benefit from selling their name, image, or likeness. It would probably be unrelated to their athleticism at our institution. So the equity at division three schools is probably still pretty strong, but gosh, division one, it's going to be ugly for a while.

Emy DiGrappa (08:48):

Wow. That's really sad, isn't it? I was listening to how interesting it is that you became an athlete as a way to not being a nerd or being a brainiac or whatever you want to call it, but the academic love that you have. But throughout your life, you've really gravitated, and I don't know if you're just a natural athlete as some people are, or that was just part of your inner being that you found athletics to be an outlet of expression and you excelled at it obviously, but why rowing?

Tori Murden McClure (09:31):

I learned to row at Smith College and I am a world-class introvert. So the two sports that I really gravitated toward were cross-country skiing and rowing in a single skull, both of which are activities that it's really hard to have somebody be right beside you as you're doing those activities. And so it's great activities for someone who's naturally pretty introverted. How I became a university president is the big question 'cause it is a horrible role for somebody who's very introverted to have to spend all day and every day with people usually raising money. I feel like I eat for a living sometimes, but I've been super fortunate in walking through the doors of opportunity as they open.

Emy DiGrappa (10:20):

Well you have done that and I think it's interesting. My son-in-law went to the Duke Divinity School. So you have such a diverse, even in your degrees that you hold, they're all very much focused on your love of social issues it looks like.

Tori Murden McClure (10:41):

I do like to think of myself as the champion of the underdog in whatever form that might be. And for example, I lead an institution that hardly anyone's ever heard of, Spalding University, and we serve a student body that would be considered scrappy. When I'm feeling self-depreciative, I would say Spalding is on the shallow end of the higher education gene pool, but we're not battling with Smith or Amherst to get students from them. We're battling with McDonald's and Walmart and making sure young people have an opportunity to access a really high quality education at an affordable price.

Emy DiGrappa (11:25):

Oh my gosh. I love hearing that. I want to know a bit about, because it's just struck me as something very interesting to work for Muhammad Ali and did you meet him and how did you become his first full-time employee?

Tori Murden McClure (11:41):

When I worked for the mayor of Louisville, Jerry Abramson, who now the mayor works at Spalding, which makes me very happy, I worked for him and now he works for me, there were lots of different folks trying to create kind of a museum to honor Muhammad Ali in Louisville, his hometown. And Muhammad had many gifts, but being able to tell the good white people from the bad white people was not among them. So there were lots of these nefarious characters that would be wandering through trying to do stuff with Muhammad Ali. And finally, the mayor of Louisville just had enough of these clowns and said, "Muhammad, we need to do something to honor your legacy and please let me put together some quality people to help you do it." And by quality, I mean intellectuals, folks who weren't just doing it to stand beside Muhammad and try to make some money.

(12:33):

And so I worked for the mayor at that point and Muhammad came into the mayor's office and all the important people met him and I was what I thought of as the bounding puppy. I was a little more than an intern, but not much. I was being paid, but not very much. So I held back and sort of stood in the corner of the room. And after Muhammad had shaken hands with everybody else, he looked at me like, "Kid, are you not going to come over and shake my hand?" And so I very sort of bashfully walked up and shook his hand and then kind of ran back to my corner. But he was so gracious with the folks who were socially awkward or gracious with folks he recognized as folks who'd been through some stuff and were maybe a little broken. He definitely had a soft spot for those folks.

(13:25):

And I tried to row a boat alone across the Atlantic Ocean and was unsuccessful in my first attempt because I got hit by a hurricane and came home very beaten and very broken and the mayor had to leave office because of a term limit. And I was asked if I wanted to take a job working for Muhammad Ali and I was like, "Why, yes I would." And Muhammad knew where I was as a human being better than I did. Muhammad Ali got to be the world champion three times. Guess what? You don't get to do it three times if you don't lose twice pretty epically along the way. And so he knew where I was. I had been knocked down and I was struggling to get back up. And he sort of shepherded me through that process and every time he visited Louisville, he would kind of come by and he never physically popped me in the arm or punched me, but it was that sense of, "Kid, you got to get up. Kid, you got to get up."

(14:20):

And when he knew I was ready, which was, I don't know, months and months after I'd been working for him, he said to me, "Tori, you don't want to go through life as the woman who almost rode across the ocean." And he was right. So I went back and was successful in completing the row across the ocean, but Muhammad had a big piece of that.

Emy DiGrappa (14:38):

That is so exciting that one, yeah, you're right. You don't get to be a champion without falling down a few times and getting yourself back up and doing it all over again. And you hear about those stories about how people just overcome defeat to get to the next place. And you had that kind of mentorship with him and I think that that is so amazing and gosh, that just must make your heart sore when you think about that.

Tori Murden McClure (15:13):

Yeah. He was a pretty magical character and flawed and complicated as all the most interesting people are.

Emy DiGrappa (15:22):

So I didn't realize until you just told your story that way, you were going to sail your boat. You ran into, what was the name of the storm you ran into?

Tori Murden McClure (15:31):

Hurricane Danielle. Like many people, I learned more from my failures than I do from our successes and failure's a very good teacher. You're very attentive to what it has to teach.

Emy DiGrappa (15:43):

The first time, and you ran into Hurricane Danielle, which I think is still on record for being one of the worst hurricanes in history, right?

Tori Murden McClure (15:53):

No. Actually Hurricane Danielle, well it had a long life and what in the United States would be referred to as a fish storm 'cause it kind of missed the east coast of the United States, didn't do too much damage, but when it hit Scotland and England, it was still a pretty violent storm. And so it hit me 1000 miles out to sea before it hit them. So it was a rough storm, but not particularly epic in terms of the record books.

Emy DiGrappa (16:22):

Oh, I see. Okay.

Tori Murden McClure (16:22):

Epic in terms of a woman alone in a rowboat. Certainly plenty epic. Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (16:27):

Yes. I'm sure. And so how long were you out in the rowboat at that time on the ocean by yourself?

Tori Murden McClure (16:33):

I'd been out for 78 days and I lost communications eight days from the start. And so for 70 days had no contact with anyone on land. And so no one could say, "Hey, look out. There's a hurricane coming." I wrote in my journal, "The ocean is wrong." You just had a sense that the rhythm was off, that things were amiss, and I kept getting hit by what we call rogue waves. Waves that were way bigger than the conditions would account for and they were sort of the outriders to the hurricane that kept smacking me. And then the big storm came.

Emy DiGrappa (17:11):

So I just want to back up for just a minute because now that I'm really like into your story and your life story and the history of your life is just understanding what was the inspiration or the idea that you wanted to be this person, the first woman, to row across the Atlantic Ocean?

Tori Murden McClure (17:30):

There wasn't that big a standalone. So when I was in divinity school at Harvard, I took off two and a half months in the middle of my last year to ski to the geographical South Pole. Now I wasn't alone on that trip. There were six Americans and two women who became the first women and first Americans to reach the South Pole by an overland route. And so there'd been sort of big adventures before that. So it just seemed like a reasonable step beyond other reasonable steps. And at some point you pass the boundaries of reason, but when you're just going one step at a time, it doesn't seem that dramatic. And again, it ties back to growing up with my brother Lamar and always feeling like, "Man, if I can just climb this mountain, I won't feel helpless anymore. If I can ski across this continent, I won't feel helpless anymore."

(18:17):

And helpless meaning I could help the people who needed my protection, I could stop injustices from happening when they were happening in front of me, that somehow I would become bigger or smarter or stronger or faster and I'd be able to have this magic wand that would help me to solve problems in what we laughingly call the civilized world. And there's something quite healing about being out in nature, away from the competing agendas. And certainly folks in Wyoming get this inherently 'cause you've chosen a life that's closer to the bone, chosen of life that's closer to the wilderness and the back country and you feel the weather. You don't just change the thermostat. And so that sense of grounding that one gets from a close connection with nature was something I kept trying to bring back into civilization as if it was a form of enlightenment that I would be able to hold onto.

(19:18):

Eventually I realized, "I can row to the moon, I'm still going to just be a human being and there's something about being human." And it's those elements of helplessness. And in the end, the first line of my book, A Pearl in the Storm, is, "In the end, I know I rode across the Atlantic to find my heart, but in the beginning, I wasn't aware that it was missing." I was such an intellectual being. I thought I could find enlightenment in books, I could find enlightenment in study, I could find enlightenment somewhere between my ears and the row across the ocean, the real story is I fell in love between my first attempt to row across the ocean and my second successful attempt to row across the ocean. And shortly after I got out of that successful rowboat journey, I literally stepped out of the rowboat into the arms of a guy named Mack McClure and I married him just a few weeks later.

(20:15):

And I feel like I've been in his arms ever since. Most women do not need to row 3,333 miles to figure out that love and friendship are good things. Most women just get it. Me, I was a slow learner in that respect. And none of us can master all of humanity at any kind of progressed level. We're good at some things and we're not so good at others.

Emy DiGrappa (20:40):

Well and I like what you said that you are an extreme introvert. You prefer those alone spaces and your job is the exact opposite of that.

Tori Murden McClure (20:50):

Right.

Emy DiGrappa (20:51):

Which is why God has such a good sense of humor.

Tori Murden McClure (20:53):

Yes.

Emy DiGrappa (20:56):

And so I think it's interesting that you did choose things that put you alone, by yourself. And whenever I meet people that really do like that alone space, they really do still have that yearning because people do need other people. People want to be loved and accepted. And a lot of times it's their insecurity of that that they push away and go hide in the corner or just be by themselves.

Tori Murden McClure (21:25):

Yeah or their sense of brokenness or inadequacy. I don't have any lack of self-esteem or self-worth for the sense of I have not always succeeded in taking care or protecting the people who have needed my protection. And that is a sense of failure that is hard to overcome. And I can look back and go, "Well, okay. The first time I had that sense of failure, I was a toddler. Was I really supposed to hold myself accountable for something that happened when I was in diapers? Perhaps not." But that sense of failure is real.

Emy DiGrappa (22:06):

Well that's super interesting in and of itself. I have a daughter and her husband, Federico who went to Duke Divinity School, they have two children adopted from China, one Beijing, one Hong Kong, and they're both physically challenged. Zsheen, she has hydrocephalus. It is really interesting how those challenges do make you so much aware of a child's vulnerability and what they're going to face in the world. And I always tell Veronica in my dorm, I'm like, "It scares me because she's beautiful. She's a beautiful Chinese girl growing up and I just don't want to see her being taken advantage of or being made fun of or all those cruel things that can happen to children."

Tori Murden McClure (22:58):

Yeah. And I don't know that there's anyone who really escapes it entirely. We've come through a period, particularly with COVID, where it's like we wanted to categorize people as most oppressed or less oppressed and that's not helpful. All of us have our run-ins with catastrophe. All of us have our run-ins with unfairness. Now absolutely it is true that those who have fewer economic resources, those who come from historically oppressed minorities, yeah, it's worse for them. No doubt about it. Racism is real, racism is wrong, and we need to be allies and advocates to stop it, particularly when it's right with us.

(23:49):

But the notion that anyone escapes harm and suffering is ill-advised to take that point of view because you need the most privileged among us to feel pain, to feel the catastrophe of what is wrong in civilization so that they will act and take action to change it, to shift it. And if we are so busy saying, "You are privileged. You are unharmed. You've had it all. You can't even speak." That's doing an injustice for those who are in a better position to make change. So I think we all need to feel our vulnerabilities. We all need to feel the pain and suffering of the world, and particularly the pain and suffering of those who have had fewer advantages.

Emy DiGrappa (24:45):

Yes. That's true. And some things you said, I agree, and some of it I feel like growing up in a big Hispanic family and understanding discrimination and my dad was head of the migrant program for over 33 years in Fort Collins and it's hard to walk in another person's shoes is all I'm saying.

Tori Murden McClure (25:07):

Yeah. I don't think we can, but we can-

Emy DiGrappa (25:10):

I think you can have empathy, but-

Tori Murden McClure (25:12):

Right. Or just a consciousness that-

Emy DiGrappa (25:16):

Yes. A consciousness.

Tori Murden McClure (25:18):

Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (25:18):

Well Tori, tell me about your book because that was the one thing I wanted to learn about. I know the whole trip and the fact that you made it across inspired your book, but what is the core message and what do you want people to take away and learn from in your journey?

Tori Murden McClure (25:36):

The book is called A Pearl in the Storm. That title came from an editor. Authors don't really get to pick their titles and the book had a terrible title for a very long time. The publishing house initially called it, I Had to Row Across an Ocean, which was a horrible title. The boat was named the American Pearl and the book is titled A Pearl in the Storm. Most of the book is about my failed attempt to row across the ocean, the bulk of the book is my failed attempt to row across the ocean. And then there's a sort of interlude of working for Muhammad Ali and then my successful journey. The story goes back and forth, touches on my childhood. There were things at that time that I really had not come to terms with with my parents and my family and there were stories at that point that I felt were not mine to tell.

(26:31):

And so there's a lot left out of the book that I've come to terms with since. And what caused me to come to terms with those missing elements are two amazing humans. Dawn Landes and Danny Goldstein turned my book into a musical called Row and they sort of needed more of the backstory and the pieces that I'd left out and they did a remarkable piece of work. It was supposed to premiere in the summer of 2020. Of course that got canceled 'cause of COVID, but they kept the cast together and recorded the musical for Audible and I think it was the first musical to premiere on the Audible format.

(27:12):

So for a whopping $5.50 or something you too can listen to Row on Audible. And I have zero economic interest. So none of that comes to me. So I'm pretty proud of that 'cause Dawn and Danny did all the work to create this really pretty remarkable musical. Now because it was conceived during COVID, this particular iteration of the musical goes to some fairly dark and stormy places. It ends up in a happy spot, but I think given another opportunity, Dawn and Danny would lean more to the light, but it was appropriate for COVID for it to sort of be a little dark and stormy.

Emy DiGrappa (27:56):

It's interesting that it happened during COVID and it's interesting that it's mostly about your failed attempt and the lessons you learned. I can't even imagine being on a boat in the ocean by myself for, what was it, 88 days?

Tori Murden McClure (28:14):

Yeah. It was 81 on my successful trip and 85 on my unsuccessful trip.

Emy DiGrappa (28:20):

Okay. In a 23-foot plywood boat with no motor or sail. When I read that, I was like, "Can't even imagine it." So it must have been amazing to someone's imagination, especially the two gentlemen that you said produced it, that it does have this dark side to it.

Tori Murden McClure (28:41):

So it's Dawn, who's a woman, and Danny who is-

Emy DiGrappa (28:45):

Oh, okay.

Tori Murden McClure (28:46):

Somebody asked, "What's it like having a musical about your life?" And I said, "Well it's a little getting stripped naked in public." It was produced for the stage at the Williamstown Theatre Festival in the summer of '21. Still very much COVID. The actors weren't allowed to sort of interact. They had to all be in their separate spaces. They had to do it outside, which was fraught because it was a horrible weather summer. Lots of mayhem ensued with bad weather. But the actor who played me, both in the audible production and the stage production, is this amazing actor named Grace McLean, and Grace is in her mid 30s and is just spectacular, but somebody said, "Well, it's a little getting stripped naked in public, but it turns out I'm in my mid 30s, I'm a redhead, I have fantastic talent and an amazing body, so what do I have to complain about?"

Emy DiGrappa (29:42):

I like that.

Tori Murden McClure (29:43):

Yeah. So part of the book that I'm proud of is it's a story about a woman alone in a rowboat, and yet this woman is going through things that are true for most humans. That the musical picked up on these universal themes of love and loss and yearning and it ends up in this really happy place. So I am not at all embarrassed that someone managed to actually write a musical about a woman alone in a rowboat and that it's pretty good. Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (30:16):

I can't wait to hear it and watch it. It sounds so interesting. And the music must be really dynamic because you're going through these extreme kinds of situations.

Tori Murden McClure (30:29):

Right.

Emy DiGrappa (30:30):

And you built your boat yourself. You told me that.

Tori Murden McClure (30:33):

I did. To be more accurate, I put it together. I didn't design the boat. It was designed by a British fellow, Philip Morrison, who did the designs. And so I followed those designs and built the boat.

Emy DiGrappa (30:47):

Still, that is amazing, even in and of itself, speaking from someone who has a son who's been to the Wooden BoatBuilding school in port towns in Washington. So I get that. And-

Tori Murden McClure (31:00):

Yeah. I have since built a number of cedar ship canoes and other boats that probably were more complicated to put together than the American Pearl was.

Emy DiGrappa (31:07):

You like to work with your hands.

Tori Murden McClure (31:09):

I do like to work with my hands.

Emy DiGrappa (31:11):

And don't you think working with your hands, 'cause I feel that when, especially someone who has a job like yours, it's pretty intense. You're in the computer all the time or like you said, you have to raise fundraising.

Tori Murden McClure (31:27):

Yeah. And so most of my hobbies are physical in some way, whether it's rowing or cross-country skiing, which I do on wheels in Kentucky 'cause we don't have enough snow usually for me to ski outside. So I ski outside on wheels, but I woodwork, I make leather briefcases and make things out of leather, very tactile kind of things. And as your hands are busy putting things together or perfecting things, your mind is free to solve whatever problem it's working on in the workaday world.

Emy DiGrappa (32:02):

I know. It's zen, I think. And can I order a briefcase from you?

Tori Murden McClure (32:07):

I am very slow. Well, I just broke my wrist over the holiday. So I'm-

Emy DiGrappa (32:07):

I heard about that.

Tori Murden McClure (32:13):

I'm laid up a little bit. Yeah.

Emy DiGrappa (32:16):

Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well it has been so great talking to you, Tori. It has been so fun. Thank you so much for your time.

Tori Murden McClure (32:24):

Sure.

Emy DiGrappa (32:40):

Thank you for joining us for this episode of What's Your Why? Brought to you by Wyoming Humanities with support from Wyoming Community Foundation and generous supporters like you. To learn more, go to thinkwhy.org. Subscribe and never miss a show.