The Self-Determination Of Prince And His Audio Engineer: The Susan Rogers Story

"You can move mountains when you're happy and you're motivated and you're getting rewarded for your actions." – Susan Rogers

In this episode of “What’s Your Why?” hosted by Emy Digrappa, you’ll dive into the captivating journey of Susan Rogers, a former record producer renowned for her work with music icon Prince. Susan shares her transition from the music industry to pursuing a doctoral degree in behavioral neuroscience, emphasizing the transformative power of passion and continuous learning. She reflects on her experiences working closely with Prince, shedding light on his private nature and the challenges of superstardom. Susan’s deep love for music and her profound connection to the process of making music are evident throughout the conversation, offering valuable insights into the intersection of science, art, and personal identity. By delving into themes of self-discovery, music appreciation, and the significance of personal resonance in relationships and art, Susan’s story serves as a testament to the power of following one’s true calling and embracing new opportunities.

She recounts her early days repairing equipment for Crosby, Stills & Nash, and how her love for music and technical expertise led her to the opportunity of a lifetime – working with her musical idol, Prince. Susan’s story is a testament to the power of passion and the impact of seizing opportunities, even when they seem beyond reach. As she candidly discusses her experiences, listeners will be captivated by her unwavering dedication and the profound impact that this journey had on her life. Through Susan’s narrative, listeners gain insight into the remarkable intersection of talent, dedication, and the transformative power of music.

My special guest is Susan Rogers

Susan Rogers holds a doctoral degree in behavioral neuroscience from McGill University. Prior to her science career, Susan was a multi-platinum earning record producer, engineer, mixer, and audio technician, best known for her work with Prince. Susan Rogers holds a doctoral degree in behavioral neuroscience from McGill University (2010). Prior to her science career, Susan was a multiplatinum-earning record producer, engineer, mixer and audio technician. She is best known for her work with Prince (1983-1987) but production/engineering credits also include David Byrne, Barenaked Ladies, Geggy Tah, Nil Lara, Robben Ford, Tricky, Michael Penn, and Jeff Black. In 2021 she became the first female recipient of the Music Producer’s Guild Award for Outstanding Contributions to U.K. Music. She teaches psychoacoustics and neuroscience for Berklee College of Music, Boston. Her book on music listening for W. W. Norton is titled This Is What It Sounds Like: What the Music You Love Says About You.

Key Takeaways

  • Explore Susan Rogers’ inspiring journey in the music industry and gain insights into her unique experiences working with Prince.
  • Discover the transition from music to neuroscience and its impact on Susan’s career, offering valuable lessons on self-determination and career evolution.
  • Uncover the importance of self-determination in pursuing a career in the music industry and beyond and learn from Susan’s experiences in navigating this path.
  • Gain insights into the “Love at First Listen” concept, understanding its significance in the music industry and how it shapes the creative process.


  • This is What It Sounds Like – Susan Rogers’ book, which delves into the neuroscience of music and the listener’s experience. Available for purchase on major online book retailers such as Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
  • Berkeley Online – Susan Rogers is writing a course on music and neuroscience for Berkeley Online, a successful online education program for musicians.
  • Wyoming Humanities – The podcast What’s Your Why? is brought to you by Wyoming Humanities. Visit their website to learn more about their initiatives and how you can support their work.
  • The life and music of Prince.

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Welcome everyone. This is Emy Digrappa, your host of what’s your why, learning and listening about people’s inspiring journeys and the human experience. This podcast is brought to you by Wyoming humanities. My special guest is Susan Rogers. Susan holds a doctoral degree in behavioral neuroscience from McGill University, and prior to her science career, Susan was a multi platinum earning record producer, engineer, mixer and audio technician, and she is best known for her work with Prince.

Welcome, Susan. Thank you, Emy. Thanks for letting me talk with you and with your listeners today. It’s a.

And I love, I’ve loved just doing some research about you and the book you’ve just written and wanted to start and learn about your journey and where you grew up and how you got into music production. Yeah, it’s an unusual one. And that almost sort of sadly goes without saying because there are so few women who are record producers. There are lots of women artists. The Grammys were just on tv a few nights ago, and women are cleaning up when it comes to being on the artist side of making music.

But the fact remains that astonishingly few of us work on the other side of the glass as recording engineers or record producers. But I did that for many years. For 22 years, I had a hit record with the band bare naked ladies from Canada. And with that money, I switched careers and started a whole second life, going to college, earning a phd, and becoming an acadEmycian and ultimately an author. So to go way started, I grew up in southern California in Anaheim, right near, you know, like a lot of kids, it was just crazy about music.

So many young people are, but there’s a large percentage of young people who love music like crazy, and they have zero desire to sing it or perform it or even learn to play it. And I was one of those people. Those folks end up becoming sometimes record executives. Sometimes they manage bands and they go on tour and they’ll become entertainment lawyers or things like that, or djs. They go into radio.

Some of us have the itch to actually make records. And I was one of those people. So I moved not far away. I wasn’t that far from Hollywood, so I didn’t have to move all that far. But I got my career beginning in Hollywood, California, which is kind of the place to be if you’re going to be a record maker.

In 1978, you might imagine there just were not that many options for women. If you’re a young woman starting out, you’re not going to tell people that you plan to be a producer because it would be like saying, I’m going to drive to the moon. It just wasn’t done. But I thought that I could at least contribute in a way that wouldn’t involve my gender. And that involved repairing the equipment, the tape machine and the console.

Don’t care whether or not you have a y chromosome. If it’s broken and you go in there with the schematics and the oscilloscope and the parts box and you repair it, the job is done. There’s an objective standard there for doing a job well. So I started as a technician. I was working for the band Crosby, stills in Nash as their full time studio technician, audio tech, repairing the equipment.

And then in 1983, my biggest dream, my fondest dream came true because my favorite artist in the world happened to be Prince. In 1983, Prince was looking for a technician to move to Minnesota and work with him full time. I heard about that job. I got that job, and it changed my life. My career really took off with that big break with him in 1983.

So you didn’t actually meet him beforehand, you just applied, and he hired you? Yeah. And this might sound surprising today, but in 1983, he was a star, but he wasn’t a superstar. This is before Purple Rain had come out. And those of us who listen to r and b or listen to punk, because he was kind of a cross between both.

We were aware of Prince, but a lot of the old guard just thought he was kind of a freak. So when the call went out by his management to find a technician, somebody who wants to leave their full time job in Hollywood, California, or New York city, and come to Minnesota, of all places, and work with this guy, there weren’t many people interested. But I learned about it through the grapevine and the professional grapevine, and I knew in an instant it was meant for me, because. Well, let me give you a number of reasons. One, I was a huge prince fan.

I had all of his records. I had seen him play in concert when he had come through Los Angeles a couple of times. So, big, big fan. Two, this is non trivial, as he would put it. I grew up on the same musical street as he did.

He liked R B and funk and all that, and I did, too. So I knew his musical place of reference. Three, this was a plus for me. He liked working with women. And the more women he could have in professional positions around him, the happier he was.

So I fit that bill. Four, I could stay up with him. He worked long hours. Round the clock, round the clock, round the clock. And I was just as driven.

For every hour he stayed up, I’d match him. Hour for hour. I guess the fifth thing might have been temperament. I was quiet and didn’t challenge him or get in his face. I simply did my job, and I really knew my stuff at that point.

So all these things together made me a good fit for him. When did that moment come when you were working with him? Because you developed purple brain with him. Correct? We worked on that together, yes.

When did he move from being not as big of a star to being a huge success? There’s a concept that we talk about in the music business called the Triple Crown, and I will answer your question, but in an indirect way. The Triple Crown refers to three audiences for our work. And if you’re putting out a record, there’s going to be the general public. That’s the main audience, but there’s also going to be the music critics and the scholars, the folks who write about you, and then there will be other musicians, and that’s a tough crowd because they’re going to be skeptical and they’re going to be thinking to themselves, well, I could do that better, or my friends could do that better.

Anyway, the Triple crown means that for one moment in time, you’ve created a work of art that appeals to all three of those audiences, and there’s not that much overlap there. So to answer your question, prince went from stardom to superstardom on the Purple Rain album. He, for that time, wore the triple crown because he had a number one record. That album was number one for 24 weeks on the Billboard charts. He was popular with the public.

Critics and scholars were, gave him respect. They praised him. And other musicians realized, well, he may be kind of an od bird, but this guy’s an amazing player, an amazing singer, an amazing writer. He can kind of do it all. So that’s when he achieved that escape velocity and became a superstar.

So what other groups or singers did you work with during that time? Or was that just Prince time and then you went on to work with others? It was the latter. So I was employed as his full time employee. But Prince did something that, as far as I know, no other artist has done.

He was smart enough to recognize that a scene is more interesting than just a lone artist coming from a place like Minneapolis, Minnesota. So he created his own competition. And by that, I mean he created albums, and I did these with him that were sort of. He was like a ghost writer. He created ghost albums for his alter egos, like Vanity Six and the Time and Sheila E and artists like that.

So I did work with the other artists who were in his stable. But for the most part, they were essentially Prince records. While I was with him in 1988, I left. His method of working had changed. I needed to kind of get on with my life and actually have a life.

So I moved back to California and then worked with a much greater variety of artists. You had to get on with your life and actually have a life. I like hearing that because I did read how you were available 24/7 because he was just creating round the clock. That’s true. Since I have now an education in neuroscience, I recognize what we call a hyper creative.

And people who are hyper creative actually have a couple of faulty circuits in the brain. Most of the time, what our brain is doing is keeping the brakes on, stopping us from inappropriate actions, behaviors, and decisions. We keep those brakes on throughout most of the circuits of the brain, there are a couple of circuits that are involved in creativity, and they’re gates that stay shut. But people who are hyper creative tend to have a couple of faulty breaks. And what that means is they think of more new ideas that could possibly be used to create something.

So they’re more open minded. And once they get going thinking of exciting new creations, they are less picky about what differentiates relevant from irrelevant information. So their brain is open to more ideas, more far fetched ideas, and they don’t shut those breaks down that quickly and dismiss an idea as being unworkable or irrelevant. They keep the gate open. So with someone like Prince, those ideas, those new songs are coming so fast that we had to work around the clock.

It’s not like he sat there and wrote music in a formal manner. If he had an idea, he wanted to record it. So, yeah, a 24 hours day was. Very typical and exhausting, I’m sure. Well, sort of, yeah, physically exhausting, but you can’t imagine the thrill.

I’m working with my favorite artist in the world. He’s on top right now. In the mid 80s in the United States, it was Prince, Madonna, and Bruce Springsteen. Michael Jackson was, of course, in the mix, too, but Prince was right up there with them. Now, these other artists, they had a stable, a team of people who wrote and played and produced and kept their musical empire rolling forward.

But the funny and perhaps admirable thing about Prince is that compared to everyone else, he was working with a skeleton crew. He had no producer. He had his talented musicians with him, but he didn’t always need to rely on them, because he could play just about anything as well or better than they could. And his engineer was basically an audio technician who had no experience, certainly zero experience producing. And my only experience engineering before Prince was really virtually none at all.

I knew how the equipment worked quite well because I repaired the equipment, but actually using it in an artistic way, no, zero experience. Oh, so that was a huge learning curve for you. It was huge. Oh, my gosh. You had to stay up all night because you had to figure it out, too.

You had to figure everything out, all the sounds and what he wanted and where he wanted it to go. That must have been amazing and exciting for you. Exciting is the right word. Thrilling is a good word, too, because it means just really high arousal. And, yeah, it was kind of scary.

But I had, in my opinion, the best job in the world. I was in my 20s, as was he. We were all in his crew. We were all pretty young in those days, so willpower and excitement fueled us, kept us going, and really, there was nowhere else I would rather be than with him. And you can move mountains when you’re happy and you’re motivated and you’re getting rewarded for your actions.

This is an extraordinary thing to do a record, release it, and then see it just shoot up the charts. I mean, that I have now learned since working with mere mortals, that typically doesn’t happen to be part of that on some level. I was well aware. This is some pretty rare air, so enjoy it while you can. Yeah, enjoy the ride.

Were you only working for him, or did you have a friendship? Well, that’s a good question.

I think I was actually very scared of even attempting something like that, like a personal relationship, because the poor man, he didn’t need it. He was working so hard, making so many major decisions all on his own. Sure, everyone needs friends, but it would have been inappropriate. I think I felt it anyway. It would have been inappropriate for me to try to have a personal relationship.

My instincts were guiding me here that said that what I was doing for him in a very real sense, was I was facilitating his creativity. He would have these ideas, and it was my job to make sure that those ideas came out of his head, got through his instruments onto tape, back off tape, and then were packaged in such a way that we could sell some records. So I stayed in my lane. I might have been overly cautious, but I think it worked out best for both of us. Well, good for you.

What did you feel when he passed away? Well, it was truly shocking. So just about ten days before he passed away, my friends Wendy and Lisa, who were his, they were his bandmates that same era, they were in the revolution. Wendy and Lisa had just come to Berkeley, where I was teaching in Boston, and spent a week in residence with us. So I had just gotten reacquainted with Wendy and Lisa.

I hadn’t seen them since the. We talked and we told prince stories and we rEmynisced, and none of us had seen him in a while. But he’s such a major influence in our lives that he’s always there mentally, in a way. So when I got the call that prince had passed, it was shocking, profoundly had we had love for him. He wasn’t always the easiest person to be with, but he was warm hearted.

In his heart of hearts. He was loving, he was respectful. He was responsible for my career. He was always good to me, not always on a moment by moment basis, because he could be very impatient and he could be snappy and kind of rude. But those waters ran deep, and they were very still and very pleasant down below that surface.

So I had great love and still do for him and great admiration. So, yeah, it was terribly sad. The other thing that was sad about it is that we didn’t expect that knowing prince. The prince that we knew did not take recreational drugs. And, in fact, I believe to this day that he wasn’t taking recreational drugs.

I believe he was managing pain as a person who was extraordinarily private. Didn’t want to see a doctor, didn’t want anyone to know he was sick. He simply wanted to pretend that everything was fine, despite his deteriorating hips and ankles and the pain that he was in. So I think he was just trying to mask that pain. All indications that I have, anyway, and it’s limited, but this is what makes the most sense.

He was masking that pain. And with his small body, he took more than his body was capable of managing. I can actually believe that because I was reading about his young wife that he married and their baby and just how private he was during even her pregnancy. Yeah, poor guy. He had a tough decision to make.

So imagine this. Imagine that you’re a young person growing up in a midwestern town in a lower middle class family, and that family is in turmoil and your parents divorce, and you’re tossed out of the house and no one will take you in. You have to escape from your mom and her new husband, and your father won’t have anything to do with you. And by age 14, you’re homeless and you’re having to live with a friend from high school. But, you know, you’ve got brains, you’ve got talent, you got a lot of moxie, and sure enough, you manage to get yourself an astonishing record deal at age 18.

And then from there, you believe that maybe you don’t have to take artistic direction from anyone. You can produce your own records. You don’t have to be Michael Jackson or Bruce Springsteen or Madonna. You can do this on your own. So you convince your record label that you can do this.

And when you’re 24 years old, you’ve got the moxie to convince your label that you should be making a sEmyautobiographical movie about your life. And you’re 24 years old. I mean, you haven’t even been alive that long. But they say yes because they believe in you and you do this and it works. And by the time you’re 26 years old, you’re a global superstar.

And everyone around you whom you call friend is someone who gets a paycheck from you. So there you are. It’s a really lonely place. And in order to survive that sort of thing with your head intact, you realize that you’ve painted yourself into a very isolated corner. You now live in a certain way that.

I mean, how many other people can you name who live like that? Certainly there are other superstars, but they usually have other people that they collaborate with to a greater extent to be responsible for their success. So he’s all alone. And he maintained that isolation. That was a choice.

He maintained it in order to maintain the prince, whom the public knew. And it’s like volunteering to go colonize Mars or something. You’re going to be alone. And yet he said, I’ll do this. So all the decisions in his life, the good and the bad, were the outcome of these early choices that got him what he wanted, but also made life lonely and remote and kind of cold.

Yeah. Wow. Determination. That could be just a whole subject on its own about your self determination and what we do as people that could potentially harm us or do well and do great for great people who have self determination. But at the same time, like you said, his self determination made him become isolated.

Yeah, it’s true that we don’t get everything we want in this life. I don’t know, I suppose maybe some people are know Taylor Swift and all that comes to mind. Some people do seem to be getting anything you might desire in this life. But having seen superstardom up close, I realize, boy, there’s a lot you don’t get as well. I was just thinking about her this morning.

I don’t know much about Taylor Swift. My musical tastes have lean elsewhere. But I was wondering about her, and I was wondering, what’s it like during those hours or those days where she says, I want to do absolutely nothing right now, I want to do nothing. And yet she’s got so many employees and people who are depending on her. That’s not an option for her right now.

The choices she’s made has gotten her to this point, or any other celebrity or very important person, politician or lawyer or doctor or anyone you care to name. The choice has got them to a place where sometimes they might look around and realize, wow, I’ve been on my little ice flow here, and I have sailed really far from land, and yet here I am, and here’s where I’m going to be for the foreseeable future. Well, you have such interesting perspectives, and your journey is very exciting. And just the fact that you had your own self determination, you wanted to do something, and you moved to Hollywood to do basically became you taught yourself, you learned because you wanted this, and then you had this door open for you. So I think that is amazing, and that’s its own self determination.

And from know, moving away from prince and going back to school, you decided to go back to school. What made you decide to get a doctoral degree in behavioral. Know, I’m unmarried and I don’t have children, which means that any decision I make isn’t going to affect anyone else’s life. It’s not going to prevent a child from having a college experience or it’s not going to cause a spouse to move. So when you’re in that position, anything that you think you might like that might work out for you, you’re free to do so.

I began later in my record making career, I began increasingly to fantasize about the life of a scientist and looking at spreadsheets and analyzing data and in particular, just doing a deep exploration of the nature of consciousness and brain science and what these things were. I began to think, oh, I think I’d love that. I think I’d really love that. And as the years went by, that calling, that inner voice, just seemed to get louder and louder. And then I knew, well, then, I’ve got to make it happen.

I’ve got to make it happen. It was made possible by having a hit record with bare naked ladies in the late 90s, back in the days when, if you were a royalty participant, which is what producers were and still are, I guess you made a lot of money when you’d had a hit record. And with that money, I could leave the music business in 2000, start college as a freshman. In college, I was 44 years old. I was a freshman.

I did eight straight years, got my phd, and still love it. My inner voice said, you will like this. And it turned out I was right. Listening to that voice, it didn’t steer me wrong. I love it very deeply.

Oh, good. Yeah, that sounds like your heart passion when you talk about it like that. What is the name of your book? It’s called this is what it sounds like, which is just a little tip of the cap to prince. That was the tagline in Windove’s cries.

First big single. This is what it sounds like when doves cry. The book is written for the lay reader, for people like me, who love music like crazy but might not be musicians. It’s talking about what music sounds like to us, to music listeners, and how our individual listener profile, our taste in music is unique to us, and how that forms over all of the listening experiences that we’ve had in our lifetime. I’m talking about it, of course, from a neuroscientist’s perspective, but also from a record maker’s perspective.

And like most people, I’m a non musician. From the non musician’s perspective, I’m not talking about music per se, talking about music listening and the different ways in which the elements of a record may or may not appeal to us. How our listener profile got to be the way it is. Yeah. That makes me think of you being in that industry as an audio engineer and listening to music all the time, making records.

Why did you not want to play an instrument?

The question is such a mystery. I would love to know more about it. I firmly believe that little children down deep inside have an instinctive awareness of who they are. I think, I don’t know. I’ve never read any empirical research reports, but I believe that down deep inside, from a young age, we kind of have a sense of knowing our appetites and knowing to some degree, our abilities like this would suit me, and my hunch is telling me that wouldn’t.

Now, we all know that parents and teachers tend to tell kids, here’s who you are. You’re going to grow up, you’re going to be this, you’re going to be that. But I think if you leave kids alone, they kind of know. And I felt from a very early age that when I tried to fantasize about playing an instrument or singing on stage or writing songs, it just seemed to result in zero pleasure. I just had no interest in it.

It didn’t feel good at all. In contrast, when I thought about recording studios and being there as musicians are playing, and in some. Maybe I was a little kid, I didn’t know too much, but my father was mechanically inclined, and I kind of thought in some mechanical way, if I could help that happen, that’s for me, that’s the right place for me, that feels good. That would make me happy. It was just instinct, similar to the instinct I had later in life to want to become a scientist.

It just felt right. And those instincts have not. They haven’t steered me wrong so far. Well, something you said there made me think that even though you weren’t the one playing the music or writing the song, you were still making music just by what you did on that board. I feel as though I am musical.

Just recently, last month, I was in muscle Shoals, Alabama, and I was experiencing a dream come true. I recorded for three days in fame studios. Fame in Alabama is something I’ve been dreaming about since I was a kid, going there and making music right there where one of my idols, the late Rick hall, where he stood. And it was said about Rick that Rick hall, his special gift was understanding where music comes from in the creators of it, and helping the creators of music, helping musicians to express those ideas that they had given birth to as seeds. And I feel like, well, I’m not on the level of Rick Hall.

I feel like I’m cut from the same piece of cloth, probably kind of the ragged end of it. I think I’m a good filter for allowing musical expressions and ideas to come through me. I’m a good listener.

I’ve got good instincts for what I like. I’m in touch with my listener profile. I wrote this book in part to help those music lovers like me, who love music like crazy, have a model for expressing to others. This is what it sounds like to me. This is how my favorite music makes me feel.

This is why this record and not that record feels perfect to me. Those of us who are in touch with that are deeply musical in a sense, even though our musicality is being on input and listening, not being on output, and putting music out there in. The world, well, it kind of matches what I’m reading about you that says that while you were exploring the science of music and the brain, that you wanted to take people behind the scenes of record making and use your insider ear to illuminate the music of Prince and others. And others. Frank Sinatra, Kanye west, you mentioned here, Lana Del Rey.

So it’s like you wanted people to be able to express their experience with music. Yes, I think by sharing with others how we hear music, what we listen for, the individual instruments, the style, the performance, gestures, things like that. By guiding the listener through, shall we say, an expert’s listening process, you’re doing something similar to walking through an art gallery or an art museum, let’s say with someone who’s a curator, someone who can point out in this painting, notice over here, notice how the skin color on this hand is different from the skin color on that hand and that knowledge. Pointing out those little details can increase your appreciation for something, because knowledge does affect how we perceive things, whether it’s knowledge of food. Taste this.

And taste that blend of spices. You pick up that there’s not much salt in this. And the chef did that on purpose to allow the cumin or the tarragon or the thyme or the oregano to come through. Can you tell how these flavors mesh together? That knowledge is going to affect your perceptions of what you taste of you smell and what you hear and what you see and what you feel.

I was hoping with this book that by describing, here’s what this sounds like to me, the listener would not, or the reader, I should say, would not be learning about my taste in music. That’s irrelevant. But rather their own taste in music. Maybe they can then extrapolate from these array of examples in this book to their own pieces that they love the most. Is that what you want people to take away, students or just people who buy your book to identify who they are in their musical experience when they’re a listener?

Yes, exactly. If you explore your musical loves, you are exploring sorts of things that appeal to you, for the most part, pretty instantaneously. In the last chapter, I draw a parallel between love of music and romantic love. So when we fall in love with a person, we have a crush, and we see them, meet them for the first time. What is that?

It’s such a mystery. How come this one person can strike you as being someone special, person you’ve never met? There might be a lot of other people in the room. Why this one and not that one? What is it about this person and most of us couldn’t say?

Well, I don’t know. In many cases, this person might not be the best looking person in the room. Or maybe the way they’re dressed, maybe they’re looking kind of rough, or maybe they’re not the wealthiest person. Maybe they’re not driving the best car, or maybe they’re not the most articulate person, but you recognize something in that person that makes you think, yeah, now, that person would be a good match for me, it’s similar. When we fall in love with music at first listen, there are these little gestures and sounds and elements that make you think, yeah, that’s exactly how music should go to my ear.

So when we have that love at first listen or love at first sight moment, it’s saying, this person, this object is a good match for my psyche and is a good reflection of who I am down deep inside. This is why I’m hoping that readers of this book will get a better sense of their own listener profile and consequently get a better sense of their own musicality. The music of themselves. I love that, the music of themselves. It’s been so great talking to you.

I love your journey and your story. So fascinating. And what is next for you professionally? I’m nearly finished writing a course for Berkeley online on music and neuroscience, and I’m enjoying that very much. Berkeley online, that’s a very successful online education program for musicians.

So I’m writing music and neuroscience for them. And I’ve got a textbook that is in the works. I’ve received an invitation to write the textbook, so I’ll do that. And then beyond that, I’m kind of old now. I’m in my late 60s.

So I was just going to kind of try to take a little bit of a break and enjoy this wonderful place where I live and maybe slow down a little bit. Well, that’s a good plan. That’s a good plan. Well, thank you so much, Susan, and just have a beautiful afternoon. Thank you very much for inviting me, and I appreciate your listeners’ears.

Thank you. Absolutely.

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