Kevin Olson’s Guide To Visionary Journalism

Kevin Olson is the owner and president of Jackson, Wyoming-based Teton Media Works Incorporated (TMW). TMW’s media assets consist of local newspapers, magazines, affiliated websites, a digital creative agency – Orijin and the recently acquired local news stream - Buckrail. Kevin serves as the Publisher of the Jackson Hole News&Guide, Jackson Hole Daily, Jackson Holemagazine, Images Westmagazine, RANGEmagazine,Teton Familymagazine and Grand Weddingmagazine. He, his wife Shelley, and family moved to Jackson Hole from Orange County, CA in 2001 to become the Associate Publisher of the Jackson Hole News. Prior to his move to Jackson, he held a variety of leadership positions at the Orange County Register newspaper in Santa Ana, CA. He began his journalism career after graduating from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Telecommunications at Arizona State University. ASU was not far from his hometown of Scottsdale, AZ.

Kevin serves as an active Rotarian with two stints on its board and now its foundation, past board chairman for Jackson Hole Young Life, past chairman of the Jackson Hole Chamber of Commerce, current member of the Chamber’s Government and Community affairs committee and recently appointed as President of the Wyoming Press Association’s board of directors.

Emy Digrappa (00:00):

Hello, my name is Emy Digrappa. Each week we bring you stories asking our guests the question why? We learn about passion, purpose and a human experience. Brought to you by Wyoming Humanities with the generous support of the Wyoming Community Foundation. This is What's Your Why?

Today we are talking to Kevin Olsen. Kevin is the owner and president of Teton Media Works and he is the publisher of Jackson Hole News&Guide. Welcome Kevin.

Kevin Olsen (00:43):

Thank you. Great to be on the program.

Emy Digrappa (00:47):

Well, thanks for taking the time. And I wanted to start off our conversation by just kind of learning a little bit more about you and how long you've lived in Jackson and why it became your home and what was your journey here?

Kevin Olsen (01:03):

Okay. My wife Shelley and I moved from Mission Viejo, California, back in 2001. The short story is that a good friend of ours in California used to live in Jackson and knew Mike Sellett, who was the longtime owner and publisher of the Jackson Hole News. And as the story goes, she said, "Hey, Mike's looking for someone to run his newspaper, would you be interested?" And I said, "Where?" And she said, "Jackson Hole, Wyoming." I'm like, "Jackson Hole, the ski place?" 'Cause I was kind of a ski bum at heart. And she said, "Yep."

                 So I reached out to Mike and happily ever after. We've been here now for 19 years, having back in '01 moved our small family at the time here and got seated in. I was the associate publisher of the Jackson Hole News for a year and then we merged with Jackson Hole Guide and so that created the Jackson Hole News&Guide in 2002. And, um, of course, it's been the County paper of record in Teton County ever since. So that's the short version of how we ended up (laughs) here.

Emy Digrappa (02:06):

Well, what is your business background?

Kevin Olsen (02:08):

My degree from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Telecommunication at Arizona State University was in journalism, but my kind of area of focus was public relations and advertising. And that was really the area that I wanted to head into from a career standpoint, but the cards weren't right at the time and the time I graduated from school. So I started my first job with the Orange Country Register in Southern California and kinda worked my way up the business and marketing and management side of the media company versus the journalism and news side of the media company.

                 But as fate would have it, um, as time went by working at the Orange County Register, I found myself going between the news side of the business and the business side of the business trying to create new products reaching emerging audiences. And so that's how I kind of got my publisher hat fit to my head.

Emy Digrappa (03:06):

(laughs). Publisher hat. (laughs). Well, so, that just leads me to, tell me more about Teton Media Works because, as you mentioned before it's a complete umbrella for several different publications.

Kevin Olsen (03:22):

When I purchased the business from my predecessor Mike Sellett back in December of 2012, I envisioned us being more than just a newspaper. I envisioned us being more of a diversified media company because I saw the landscape in front of us and the disruption that was happening across all facets of the media business and I knew that you couldn't stand on one leg, on newspapers alone. And so, fortunately we had a, a fledgling, um, magazine division that was growing and gaining more advertiser and reader share, both for locals and visitors and so we propped up that division alongside our two newspapers, the Jackson Hole News&Guide and the Jackson Hole Daily. So, at that stage of the game we had two of four legs of the stool that I, uh, ultimately want to create for our company.

                 The third leg was to create digital marketing capabilities so that as businesses in Jackson wanted to diversify how they advertise and market themselves, um, certainly a current is, uh, and has been very strong because of the high market penetration of our newspaper products in this market, but, you know, businesses wanna do more in video and they wanna do more in social media and then they wanna make sure their brand is on target and the communication coming out to its constituents is reaching them in ways that activate their interests in those businesses. And so we acquired a, a start-up company called Origin Media back in 2016, and that created the third pillar where we were able to, or the third leg, we were able to off- offer digital marketing services to businesses in and around Jackson but really throughout the Rocky Mountains. And Scott Page heads up a talented group of people who can build websites, they can produce videos, they can, uh, look inside a company's communication tactics and recommend ways to do it better, reaching their customer base more effectively. Um, they do commercial photography, so that was a really important third leg.

                 And our fourth leg as we move forward into the future is to understand all of the points of interaction that we have with consumers and businesses in our market through our products print, through our products digital, and the different business services that we have and create a digital, a, a data repository where we can create a business connecting businesses with consumers through the data trove that we'll be able to develop in, uh, the years ahead.

                 So that's kind of the multi-faceted four pillar, four-legged stool that we envision for our diversified media company.

Emy Digrappa (06:24):

I think it's interesting that you had that vision way ba- way back when and here we are in, um, the digital world now more than ever probably.

Kevin Olsen (06:34):

Yeah.

Emy Digrappa (06:35):

How do you see people still embracing print? How do you see people still embracing the Jackson Hole News&Guide printed, not the online one, but the printed one?

Kevin Olsen (06:45):

Yeah, I mean, the proof is in the pudding. We produce, um, virtually the same number of print newspapers today, you know, a little asterisk except for COVID, than we did years ago. So we're in a very unique market situation here in Jackson. And really, in Wyoming where, you know, the progressive, uh, adaptive of digital is not as advanced as we see in the metro markets where the media landscape has been completely, you know, blown up and disrupted and diversified and has been really challenging for the news media business. But, you know, here in Wyoming, here in Jackson Hole, people still embrace the slowness, if you will, of leaning back, reading the news, understanding how it fits their life, what they are passionate about, what they wanna advocate for, what they wanna participate in and so we see newspaper readership still very strong.

                 What the, you know, going back to the asterisk on COVID, what we saw during the lockdowns is access to the papers where people would normally get them was virtually shut off. And so we did see website readership and more specifically subscriptions for our digital replica newspapers, both the weekly News&Guide and the Daily, Jackson Hole Daily, spike as a result of those lockdowns. And ultimately that's good for our future because if we have that recurring subscription revenue by engaged residents, and even seasonal residents, who are now reading our paper back in Greenwich, Connecticut, because they are vested in Jackson Hole. That recurring reader revenue is really what helps fund journalism long-term.

Emy Digrappa (08:36):

What I think is interesting about small town newspapers is that they seem really relevant in this day and age. That it's a community-minded thing is to have, you know, your local newspaper, where, where everything that newspaper... I mean, I know you do national and international news as well, but you really focus on your community.

Kevin Olsen (09:00):

In the Jackson Hole News&Guide it's 100% deep dive in the community, yes. And so our ultimate path to a reader is we know that people come, um, perhaps when they're younger, or perhaps when they're just new to the market and they're still trying to figure everything out, but once they get settled in, once they get jobs, once they get married, once they have kids, once they're on boards, they need to know what's going on in our community. And so, the Jackson Hole News&Guide's weekly approach of everything local, deep and wide has served, you know, our, our community well, but it's developed by some super pro journalists who have a great vision on bringing to life what happens every day in Jackson Hole and summarizing it in that weekly report.

Emy Digrappa (09:51):

Do you consider the News&Guide to be a centrist, not a liberal, not a conservative paper, you tr- try and stay in the center? What do you think?

Kevin Olsen (10:01):

Absolutely have to and try to with all of our might. There understandably is a lot of criticism towards media these days of being a right-leaning or being left-leaning paper, we steer clear of all of that, excuse my French, crap. Because our job is not to polarize, our job is to objectively inform and so our center point is the truth. You know, you know, let's, let's boil this whole down, let's boil all this down, let's talk to the sources, let's determine where the truth lies in anything. You know, whether it's, I mean, it doesn't that intense with a feature story on, you know, biologists doing work in the National Elk Refuge, but when it comes to controversial topics, we, we have to stay down the center, present both sides.

                 Our reporters are trained to include that in their news reporting. Our editors are trained to look for little diversions that may lead a reader to think that, you know, we're trying to angle or slant, but that's not our job. We produce an apolitical paper for people to make their own decisions. We've got an intelligent market here, and we just wanna provide the informa- information, they can take, take it and decide what they wanna do with it.

Emy Digrappa (11:17):

So I guess you are in a very unique position, but also, um, understand that newspapers throughout the US receive a lot of their content from press releases, right? And so how do you, how do you guard yourself against fake news? If you're just, like, having press releases come in on different candidates, especially in the national arena, how do you guard against, like, what is pertinent to write about and what is, what, what should we just, like, ignore?

Kevin Olsen (11:49):

Okay. You're starting to touch on a really key point and that's the difference between local news media and national news media. We're not inundated with the things that you led out with, you know-

Emy Digrappa (12:03):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (12:05):

... angling releases trying to persuade or advocate for certain positions. We're more inundated, if you will, with releases from, you know, the local arts organizations or the local conservation organizations or local businesses, and so, you know, we'll take those releases. It's our internal protocols that we do original reporting-

Emy Digrappa (12:05):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (12:30):

... on press releases. And that happens 97% of the time. The other 3% is when we just don't have the staff time to do our own original reporting, but we know who the source of that press release was. We can read the authenticity of the information there and we want our readers to know about it. So we'll print that. A great example is the Jackson Hole Historical Society and Museum just recently completing the purchase of their land in downtown Jackson. That came in as a press release, we ran it as a press release because we understood all those factors that I just mentioned. We wanted to get that information to our readers because that was a big effort that consumed a lot of time and energy last year and into the winter and the summer for the museum.

Emy Digrappa (13:22):

So, there's some very national topics that boil down into very local topics, like immigration and housing and women's issues, for example. How do you deal with those kinds of issues on a local level.

Kevin Olsen (13:38):

Thanks for bringing that up. We will definitely look at what's playing outside of our little cocoon here and take a national topic but look at it through a local lens. So, when it comes to a topic like women's issues or immigration, we're gonna be seeking local sources on the ground to interpret that national movement or that national issue on what it means to them here. What it means to us here. So we'll report through their eyes using the national spectrum as context, but we'll tell the story through the local angle.

Emy Digrappa (14:15):

Yeah, so there're some things that were in the news recently and that were pretty contentious, and I won't mention names, but, (laughs) I guess I might as well mention names because it'll just give it away anyway. But there are, our mayor and accusations that were being made and that was pretty sensitive in a lot of ways.

Kevin Olsen (14:35):

It was intense, yep.

Emy Digrappa (14:36):

Yeah. What, whatever side y- you thought you were on.

Kevin Olsen (14:39):

Yes.

Emy Digrappa (14:40):

So, how do you choose to handle that, especially when you know, you know, peoples lives, people who live here, their reputations are at stake. How do you, how do you deal with that?

Kevin Olsen (14:50):

So typically things will come to a news reporter in the form of a tip, or a rumor, or an email, or a phone call, and it's that reporter's job to understand a little bit more and so there's a process of vetting and probing, interaction with his or his editor-

Emy Digrappa (14:50):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (15:15):

... to seek guidance on how to pursue this topic professionally, ethically, responsibly, um, making sure that we abide by, you know, some of the tenets that we hold true to that's consistent across all of our journalistic reporting. In the case of a rumor or a tip, you know, our job number one, is to go to the authorities and find out if what we're hearing is true or if there's evidence, or a report, or a filing, or a claim, you know, things of those nature.

                 And once it's determined that there is something there, we go to the sources. And generally speaking, the sources want to let their side be known or they don't. And if they don't, then it's our job to find out why and then start to do some investigating to see if there is more to the story than what it appears at face value. So, nothing we do is, um, scattershot. Everything we do when it comes to contentious, controversial, um, matters where public figures are being called into question. We've got a process. We roll through the process,-

Emy Digrappa (15:15):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (16:39):

... um, the process sometimes takes time, maybe more time than what people would like, but we're not going to come out and publish a story until we've got the i's dotted, the t's crossed and it passes our internal test of integrity and trustworthiness so it's ready to print.

Emy Digrappa (16:58):

So how do you, um, how involved do you get in the process of, you know, you have an editor, but you're the publisher and you have writers. And how involved do you get in decision-making on whether or not a story is published or not?

Kevin Olsen (17:14):

I'm glad you asked because that is a sense of mystery for many people when it comes to media. You know, back to your, and I'll answer your question real specifically, but back to your earlier point about the national media and, you know, that's a left-leaning, you know, T- TV station, or that's a right-leaning website. We are independently owned and operated and I can choose how we want to publish our newspapers and our news which is now published on news and, uh, er, in, in papers and online. In, in our case, I, you know, my job as publisher is strategy and business. Like, I gotta make sure we have all the business fundamentals in place so that we can support the staffing of a, of a newsroom-

Emy Digrappa (18:07):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (18:07):

... who follows a very calculated approach to reporting and disseminating news in our market. I choose to allow my editors and their experience and professionalism to handle 99% of decisions that go down in the newsroom. When there's something of larger significance I'm alerted and I will certainly want to be involved in those discussions, more from a steering standpoint, because I want our staff to be convicted and make decisions on what they feel is best for our readers, not necessarily based on pressure from a publisher.

                 So I try and stay away from getting close to the readers. The editors and the reporters are the closest to the readers and these people are pros. They wouldn't work here if they weren't. And so they take great care and concern for how some of these stories work their way from tip or concept to publication and presentation. So I am not involved in the day-to-day idea generation or editing or vetting of stories. We have, um, (laughs), much more talented people than me doing that.

Emy Digrappa (19:26):

(laughs). I'm sure that's not true 'cause you have this great vision for the paper. But I also, I also am interested in how, even though we're a small town, we're kind of a big town, in a big way, just because of where we live, you know, our proximity to Yellowstone. Our proximity in the world makes us a bigger place than we are.

Kevin Olsen (19:49):

Oh sure.

Emy Digrappa (19:50):

And so what's your relationship with the larger national media organizations like, you know, The New York Times or The Washington Post, or, what kind of conversations are publishers having about the future of, of newspapers in general, not specifically, you know, the Jackson Hole News&Guide but just where is journalism going?

Kevin Olsen (20:15):

Relationship and futures, let me address relationship. We, we really don't have a relationship with the larger metropolitan newspapers other than subscribing to some of their syndication services that we use in the Jackson Hole Daily. So we will use Washington Post columnists, New York Times columnists, creators, syndicate columnists and believe me, if I [inaudible 00:20:41], the editor of the Jackson Hole Daily goes through these columns with great concern for representing a balance of viewpoints by the time they hit the opinion page of the Jackson Hole Daily. More though, we'll talk to regional publishers, publishers that are, you know, doing kind of the same stuff we are. Working within communities, 20-50,000 residents and just trying to benchmark and learn and understand how they're doing things so that we can try and improve our game and not become complacent with how we do our work here in Jackson Hole.

                 You know, journalism as a profession has, and as a trade has definitely gotten some black eyes in the last, you know, 10 years in two respects. One, financially, you know, it, it costs a lot of money to support a quality staff of journalists and when advertisers choose to do different things with their ad dollars and advertising diminishes within the publications that those journalists work for, you, you'll have fewer journalists. I mean, I don't (laughs) know of many businesses that will operate at a negative margin, but you can't do that for very long.

                 There is a movement in our industry of philanthropy supporting journalists and I think that effort will still be on the incline, particularly in markets where journalism is being squeezed out by the economics of those markets. Um, in markets where journalism can be supported, you know, fully and fairly, um, they do the work that needs to be done to keep community members engaged in their community. You can always tell the health of a community by looking at its local newspaper. And I don't have a direct scientific correlation here, but, you know, Emy you travel, you know, take a look at the local newspaper in towns that you really like to visit and hang out at and you usually have a healthy paper and it, it's the content, the vitality that the information provides its readers that keep people engaged.

                 The number one enemy of communities across, well our nation, is apathy. People getting too busy, too wrapped up and not looking out and seeing how they can participate and make things better in the communities that they live. And that just takes some time and some effort and some elbow grease and prioritization to do that.

                 And so, you know, journalism going into the future is solid, th- the funding of it is just gonna bounce around, it's gonna be challenging. There're gonna be fewer, which means the fewer that there are, the more, um, disciplined they must be at presenting a fair and balanced, although that's a pretty commonly used word these days for a popular news channel. The reality is that, you know, the objectivity that can be offered through journalism is what's really needed, especially in times as contentious as we're in right now politically.

Emy Digrappa (24:03):

Right. It's gonna be interesting... Well, for you, it's gonna be really important how you publish the outcome of, uh, election results that are coming up.

Kevin Olsen (24:16):

Well, now there's those two levels again bumping up a- against each other. What I was saying earlier, and I'm sorry to talk over you, is that all I really have to wor- worry about is the local election.

Emy Digrappa (24:26):

(laughs).

Kevin Olsen (24:26):

'Cause that's our framework for our news resources. And so, yeah, we will provide an objective and accurate report based on the information we're provided by the clerk's office on the election results locally and we'll sleep, we'll have a good night's sleep. (laughs). And then we'll leave the national stuff to the national people.

                 You know, that being said, the Jackson Hole Daily, one of its secret sauces, if you will, has been that it takes a step out into the nation and the world and, you know, into business and provides an encapsulated report for people who just wanna simply know what's going on and, you know, they'll have their work cut out. But they use the Associated Press, which is,-

Emy Digrappa (24:26):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (25:11):

... you know, that's vetting news organizations providing that material. The Associat- Associated Press, they have their own editors and fact-checkers that then will go through those published news stories to condense it down and then syndicate it to us. They're not perfect. Um, we're not perfect but we're all striving for the same thing which is that accuracy and objectivity. So, I can, I can, uh, I was gonna say, guarantee, I don't wanna say that. I can, um,-

Emy Digrappa (25:11):

(laughs).

Kevin Olsen (25:42):

... I know that we'll get the news that the Associated Press has vetted and that's what we'll turn out for the next day's paper on Wednesday, November 4th, in the Jackson Hole Daily.

Emy Digrappa (25:55):

It's a big day, big time.

Kevin Olsen (25:56):

Yeah.

Emy Digrappa (25:57):

Kevin, what is the role of social media in journalism?

Kevin Olsen (26:01):

I think, you know, social media in our playbook, um, it's primarily, it's primary role is distribution of our content. So, we will post select stories to social media so that people see something that, if they hadn't had a chance to read the paper this week, might capture their interest and then divert them into reading that story. Um, so for the most part, that works really well. Where social media starts to become a little bit problematic for me as a publisher is in two areas and in, um, you know, I'll just touch on these lightly.

                 One, is just the commentary that devolves from social media posts. I wish that people would speak in social media like you and I are speaking now. We have a certain sense of respect where people, I, I, I, you know, if I'm looking at you, I say things direct to you. But it seems like social media comments devolve into name-calling, um, just a lot of unproductive stuff happens there and I don't think it would happen if we were just sitting here talking together. So unfortunately that exists. And I, I don't know how to resolve that other than, you know, with the Jackson Hole News&Guide we've updated our commenting protocols on our articles where, you know, you, your name, you have to have your name there. You can't do it anonymous- anonymously. And you need to be a subscriber because we find that if we have this bond together, we both subscribe, we're engaged in the community, we'll talk to each other in a little bit more of a respectful way.

                 Um, the other thing that I see with social media where it kinda goes south, is people, and it's kinda like, use social media at your own risk. People will, will tend to like and follow people and organizations whose views fit theirs. And so you end up with this proverbial echo chamber of content in your newsfeed that leaves you somewhat resistant to other points of view that don't necessarily enter into your feed. And, and anytime that enters into your feed, then, "Whoa!" You know, you're kinda like, "What happened here, that's not what I signed up for."

                 And so it's this echo chamber effect that I would really encourage people to try and resist because the reality is we have to seek to understand first. And as we do that then we can tolerate other points of view without diminishing them. Because it's okay to say, "I understand what you're saying, I just think a little bit differently." And that's not derogatory, that's just straight up. And so I wish there was more of that kind of interactivity in social media, uh, today. But, I just don't know if we're ever gonna reach that.

Emy Digrappa (29:09):

Well, it's interesting that you say that because our Resident Scholar is Mark Jenkins and he's been doing a lot of research around Wyoming, talking with publishers of newspapers and one thing that has come up as a big concern is that even though the local newspaper is trying to stay very centered, um, not be liberal, not be conservative. But what's happening is they get a lot of criticism because people in their community are getting their news on Facebook.

Kevin Olsen (29:40):

Yeah. It's a big problem because Facebook is not a substitute for news.

Emy Digrappa (29:46):

Right.

Kevin Olsen (29:46):

Because there are a number of news-like things and opinions-

Emy Digrappa (29:46):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (29:52):

... and commentary that enters into the realm of social media that hasn't been vetted, that hasn't been created by ethically trained journalists. It's, it's been created by advocates and there's nothing wrong with advocacy, I mean, if you're, uh, passionate about something, advocate for it all day long but that can't take the place of objectivity in what news sources, uh, journalistic news sources, are there to provide.

                 So, it is a big challenge for publishers to break through and explain that in a, a world of chaotic and varying opinions and views, it, you know, come to the center and just, just see what it's like straight up. And that's what we're gonna give you. Now, that involves trust. So if I'm gonna say that our track record looking back better prove it.

Emy Digrappa (29:52):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (30:52):

And if it doesn't then I'm not gonna have the trust in that person to do as I just suggested. So, that's why we have to look at ourselves as news publishers and make sure we're consistent, we're toeing the line with our ethics and our reliability and across the entire spectrum of stories. And so if we make mistakes, we gotta be the first one to step up and admit it and correct it and, uh, move on and do a better job learning from it.

Emy Digrappa (31:24):

Let me ask you something before we leave this conversation because this just came into my brain (laughs). 'Cause I was thinking, as a father and someone who's involved in current issues every day, why our millennials aren't voting and do you ever ask your kids about why they should vote?

Kevin Olsen (31:46):

Absolutely. (laughs). Our kids have been encouraged to vote since they turned 18. I have two that are over 18 and, um, you know, we just, uh, even though I'm in this business, I mean, we sit down with the election section that we publish and we kind of read through and read through and get, uh, generate ideas and talk about the candidates. Talk about, you know, the issues. We've got an extra penny sales tax issue on our ballot this year. We've talked about it. So, I, I think, uh, let me just step back and say, you know, the civics class at Jackson Hole (laughs) High School has definitely made an impression on the friend groups of my kids because there really hasn't been that hesitancy. They see it as a rite of passage being 18 years and above to participate in their democracy. Which is super cool and I would imagine that same civics orientation is replicated across the state of Wyoming and I think our educators are doing a great job in that regard.

                 That being said, I think I just go back to that point earlier about apathy, you know, unfortunately, there are kids these days that feel they don't have, that they can't make a difference. And Emy, this is a broad generali- iz- a, generalization, please excuse me for doing that, but if you had to slice out, Emy, that group you just referenced, I think they just don't think their voice counts. And, uh, hopefully they'll meet someone along the line that encourages them otherwise and they'll fold in and be one of the voting public.

Emy Digrappa (33:20):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I hope so too because I, I think, um... And I don't just think it's apathy, because I have a very passionate son and it's more the damage that fake news and social media has done to make them so confused on what is the truth. What do people really stand for? Like, they might say something in a blog, but can you trust it?

Kevin Olsen (33:50):

I will just say that th- this whole notion of fake news in my view, Kevin Olsen, uh, view really started to surface in the area, era when blogging and social media and, um, opinion-oriented programming, whether it be on television or radio, started to rise.

Emy Digrappa (34:17):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (34:18):

Because prior to the term fake news ever came into the conversation, I, I never heard it. You know, working for local publishers and working for a large Southern California metropolitan newspaper, I'd never heard of fake news before. So, unfortunately just in the last, I don't know, five years-

Emy Digrappa (34:18):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Kevin Olsen (34:40):

... it surfaced and it's perpetuated by imposters who purport to be news, news reporters but they don't work for a journalistic news organization.

Emy Digrappa (34:50):

Right. They propose to be experts, actually.

Kevin Olsen (34:53):

Yeah, yeah.

Emy Digrappa (34:55):

It's just, that kind of stuff is what k- discourages me. And I, and I, I do have a ho- a lot of hope for th- our young people, but I feel like, um, the people who are in our age group really need to really figure out how to step up. And, and like, you know, make a difference in cutting that, um, that, kind of, way that we deal with journalism, really.

Kevin Olsen (35:27):

Yeah, yeah. It just comes down to belief.

Emy Digrappa (35:31):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. So anyway it was great talking to you. Thank you so much.

Kevin Olsen (35:36):

Thank you, Emy.

Emy Digrappa (35:45):

Thank you for joining us for this episode of What's Your Why. Brought to you by Wyoming Humanities with support from Wyoming Community Foundation and generous supporters like you. To learn more go to thinkwy.org subscribe and never miss a show.