Fred Schmechel: Driving the Culture of Innovation and Creativity in Wyoming

Welcome the Assistant Director of IMPACT 307, Fred Schmechel! Trained as a sculptor and graphic designer, Fred joined IMPACT 307 in the fall of 2010. He directly counsels client companies on all aspects of their business needs. His work also includes oversight of the Fisher Innovation Launchpad, and the Southeast Wyoming Innovation Launchpad, and he is working on creating similar programs across the southeast and eastern sides of the state. Additionally, because the arts sector drives the culture of innovation and creativity that fuels tech sectors, Fred works with visual and performing artist clients in our arts incubation program.

Fred’s artistic pedigree includes having work shown in the National Wildlife Museum and studying under famed graphic designer David Carson and prior to joining IMPACT 307, he spent several years involved in all aspects of the small-run printing industry including design and project management. Having designed everything from the usual printing needs, to large projects with food trucks or entire conferences.

Fred currently serves on the board of directors for the Wyoming Humanities Council and TechTalk Laramie, a Laramie based technology workers oriented 501(c)3 he helped to co-found in 2017. He is also a 2019 graduate of Leadership Wyoming!

Thank you for your precious time, Fred.


Emy diGrappa (00:00):

Hello, my name is Emy diGrappa. Each week we bring you stories asking our guests the question, why? We learn about passion, purpose, and the human experience. Brought to you by Wyoming Humanities, with the generous support of the Wyoming Community Foundation. This is, What's Your Why?

                 Today, we are talking to Fred Schmechel. Fred serves as the assistant director of IMPACT 307, Wyoming's state network of innovative business incubators. He has helped launch more than 100 innovative countries across the state. Welcome, Fred.

Fred Schmechel (00:53):

Hi, thank you. Glad to be here.

Emy diGrappa (00:55):

Well, thank you for joining us and taking the time. We just want to get to know you, and so the first thing I wanna ask you is where, where did you grow up?

Fred Schmechel (01:05):

I grew up in Cheyenne.

Emy diGrappa (01:06):

Oh, you did grow up in Cheyenne?

Fred Schmechel (01:08):

I did grow up in Cheyenne, born and raised. I've spent most of my life here in Southeast Wyoming. There's a... There's a semester in Bozeman that we don't talk about.

Emy diGrappa (01:15):


Fred Schmechel (01:15):

But, uh, the rest of the time I've, I've been very fortunate to, to be here in the Southeast Corner of the state.

Emy diGrappa (01:23):

Well, and I think that's interesting because you, uh, have followed your passion in, uh, very big ways. I was reading your biography and one of the things I did read, which I thought was incredibly interesting, is that you start out in sculpting. You were a sculptor. You were a trained sculptor.

Fred Schmechel (01:40):

I am, yeah.

Emy diGrappa (01:42):

And so, are you still sculpting?

Fred Schmechel (01:44):

Uh, mostly I'm sculpting companies these days. I don't get a chance to make a whole lot of art. Uh, why... I really love doing cast metal work, which is very difficult to do when you're on your own. Uh, and I haven't had a chance to get back into a UW class here lately to, to dedicate some time to that. But I'm, I'm hopeful I'll get back to it here sooner rather than later.

Emy diGrappa (02:06):

And so, you have a double degree. Is one in graphic design, and one is a sculpting major?

Fred Schmechel (02:12):

So my, my two degrees... My undergraduate degree is in art. Uh, and then I have a Master's in public administration. Or as I like to them, hippy and bureaucrat.

Emy diGrappa (02:21):

That's perfect.

Fred Schmechel (02:22):

Uh, and it's, it's, it's... It's just a straight line from hippy to bureaucrat to, to working as a capitalist. Uh, is the usual joke here.

Emy diGrappa (02:30):

Well, I think all artists should work as capitalists.

Fred Schmechel (02:34):

I, I do too. I mean it's, it's... It's important to Wyoming and our creativity that, uh, we be able to sustain our artists. And artists need to find a way to make sustainable living. And it's entirely possible to do here, at Wyoming.

Emy diGrappa (02:50):

And, and were you making a living as a sculptor?

Fred Schmechel (02:53):

I was not. Uh, my path was always headed down an arts administration role. Uh, I just have always enjoyed sculpting. Uh, I love the fact that it's, it's a whole body experience. It's not just art made by moving your wrist, it takes the whole body to get into a piece of sculpture and to communicate something. Uh, so yeah, I was always looking towards an admin job of some kind, working in a museum or, uh, something like that.

Emy diGrappa (03:18):

And how long have you been working for IMPACT 307? And tell us a little bit more about that organization.

Fred Schmechel (03:25):

So I started with IMPACT 307 in September of 2010. Uh, which officially makes me the old guy at this point. Uh, we used to be called the Wyoming Technology Business Center, but we were able to rebrand here, this past summer. Uh, very fortunate because the, the acronym was just a mouthful. Uh, 'cause really we were the University of Wyoming's Wyoming Technology Business Center. It was back-to-back Wyomings. We are awesome enough to warrant two Wyomings in our name, but it's still really awkward.

                 Um, I always like to point out that my mother, uh... You know, I've, I've been with incubator for more than a decade at this point, and she still couldn't get the acronym right. So that was... That was part of the reason why we, we desired to have the change. And I'm thankful to report that she was able to choose IMPACT 307 from a list that we gave her. And fortunately, everyone agreed. So, uh, I tell people that my mother, in fact, rebranded IMPACT 307.

Emy diGrappa (04:22):

Right, she was the tie-breaker.

Fred Schmechel (04:24):

She was.

Emy diGrappa (04:25):

And... And in IMPACT 307, how are you making an impact in Wyoming?

Fred Schmechel (04:32):

So we get to help people start companies. We, we keep talking about economic diversification in this state, and in my office we actually get to do something about it rather than just having these conversations. We get to work with UW students, LCCC students, and other community college students or general members of the public that see a problem that they wanna solve and, and develop into a business. And we get to help them do that.

                 Most people, uh, have this perception you have to have a business background in order to start a company. Uh, when the reality is that, uh, uh, as much as I love the, the College of Business, here at the University of Wyoming... Uh, they're, they're a fantastic program. But they finally caught up to the music department in the number of entrepreneurs that have come through our program here, just this last year. Uh, it's the people that are problem solvers, the people that, uh, are able to look beyond their own needs and the needs of others, show some empathy. Uh, they're the ones that are starting companies that are lasting and, uh, making large impacts on other people's lives, uh, in order to move things forward.

Emy diGrappa (05:34):

So just describe a couple of those companies, so I can get a... Get a sense of exactly what that means.

Fred Schmechel (05:41):

Oh my. So we've... In, in the entire history of the incubator we've launched 198 companies, is what I've come up with, just the other day, counting. So our 200th company will be coming soon. A couple of 'em...

                 Uh, one of our big successes here, in Laramie, is a company called Bright Agrotech. This is a company that did vertical hydroponic farms, uh, where the towers are, are vertical. Uh, they were ultimately acquired by a Silicon Valley company called Plenty, that has since raised, uh, uh, several hundred million dollars, uh, in equity from people like Jeff Bezos, the founder of Google, and other wealthy, notorious people. Um, to put 500 farms in the 500 largest cities around the world to give people farm fresh produce that uses a tenth of the water, if that much, uh, th- to develop them. And, and it's on a much smaller footprint. But they still have, uh, significant presence here, in Laramie. With a large number of employees over at their West Laramie facility.

                 Uh, and it includes companies... Uh, we just had one. We had a startup challenge called the Southeast Wyoming Innovation Launchpad, that launched a company called Frosty Flake. Uh, that's a service company for, uh, snowplow drivers, and snow removal companies. So that they can know when it actually starts snowing, uh, as opposed to waking up every couple of hours in the middle of the night to see if the weather man got it right. 'Cause the answer is, he didn't. Uh, so it, it lets them get a full night sleep, let's their spouse get a full night sleep as well. Uh, that's, uh... That's certainly worth having and reason to, to buy the app is to make sure that, you know, the home life is happy because they're not getting woken up every two hours so you can look out the window.

Emy diGrappa (07:21):

And how did... How do you... How do you pick? Uh... I mean, I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs come to you to get help.

Fred Schmechel (07:31):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emy diGrappa (07:33):

How do you decide who, who is going to move forward in your program?

Fred Schmechel (07:38):

So it's mostly self-selection, uh, for our entrepreneurs. We, we now work statewide. We just got a large federal grant in order to do that, uh, here, related to the CARES Act. Uh, but we take all of our entrepreneurs through a process called Lean Launchpad. Uh, it starts with problem-solving, identifying that problem. And we work through it trying to develop a pitch deck to help these companies explain what they're going to be doing, and have this concept of what their business is going to be.

                 Uh, typically, the people that don't move forward, they tend to self-select out because they find the process of validating their premises and their, uh, their... That their problem that they're thinking their solving, is actually what they wanna solve. Uh, they, they tend to self-select out in order to do that. So if you can make it through that process of being honest with yourself and being coachable, that's, that's really how we move forward with all of these companies.

Emy diGrappa (08:28):

Well, what is the process?

Fred Schmechel (08:30):

Uh, so it's called Lean Launchpad. Uh, it's a well-known industry standard that's been out for years and years. A guy named, Steve Blank invented the name Lean Launchpad, and actually wrote it down as a process. It starts with, what problem are you trying to solve? And then describing your product or service. Then focusing in on who might be your best customer. Uh, and then a market question, meaning how many customers like that are out there?

                 Uh, if you wanna start a hotdog stand and it turns out that hotdogs are a $16 billion a year industry, you're not going to claim a market percentage of $16 billion. You're gonna setup on the corner of Third and Grand here, in Laramie, and say that you can sell 500 hotdogs in a week. Uh, that, that second number is what we're looking for, not the $16 billion. We wanna know what you can actually address. Uh, and it goes from there.

                 So there's, there's 10 different points. Uh, we go through developing what a cashflow might look like, which is a tool that we use. It's an Excel spreadsheet that's kind of complicated. Uh, but it looks more scary than it actually is. Uh, and that helps us, uh, determine for these companies what actual steps they have to go through in order to be successful. Uh, and, and to, to make the level of money that they wanna make to do it.

Emy diGrappa (09:43):

And, and how do these... Uh, how do these entrepreneurs find out about IMPACT 307? What's the... Are they at UW? Where, where do they come from?

Fred Schmechel (09:52):

So they come from all over. We have centers in Laramie, Casper and Sheridan at the moment. We are working with the seven community colleges, at this point, to bring startup challenges across the state as part of this federal grant that I just mentioned. Uh, so be looking... O- On the lookout for, uh, notices in your community that there might be a startup challenge coming.

                 Uh, we're also working on a few concepts for some statewide concepts. We think that there might be some strong partnership out there around a nonprofit side of the, uh, uh, equation here, in Wyoming. Um, that we're, we're highly optimistic for. So, uh, social media, we're all over it or at least try to be. Uh, we focus a lot on press releases. Uh, Casper and Sheridan, we have found that they're very much radio listening communities so we advertise on there as well.

                 But really, is our website and that's where to find the most information possible, uh, about what we do and how to get hold of us. The good news is, if you reach out to one of us and we're not the right person, we will put you in touch with the person who is.

Emy diGrappa (10:53):

What are your... What are your thoughts about economic diversification in Wyoming?

Fred Schmechel (11:00):

Uh, well I have a few. Uh, as you might imagine, being a decade into this. Uh, the one is that I- it's incredibly hopeful for me. I'm, I'm... My job is to kind of fall in love with the Wyoming we're going to build, uh, before we've built it. Uh, and I, I... It's a very fun job to have. I get to work with some incredibly innovative, uh, and, and talented young people.

                 Uh, we often, often decide that, uh, we need to do things to keep our young people in the state. And then we never seem to involve our young people. Uh, and, and entrepreneurship and, and working through our universities and our community colleges, this is a great way where we can engage these young people to help them make their own opportunities here. And understand that they have that kind of access.

                 Uh, I mean, I remember being in the fourth grade at Henderson Elementary with, uh, Jim Landon as my teacher. Uh, and him talking about, you know, we need economic diversification in the state of Wyoming. And this is 30 some years ago. Uh, and I remember thinking at that moment, yeah, and the legislators should do something about it. As it turns out, you know, the people we're looking for need to be coachable, they need to be problem solvers, they need to have some empathy behind 'em. Uh, they, they need to be willing to explore new ideas and validate their premises. And these are traits we typically identify with 10-year-olds, more than we may identify with legislators.

                 Uh, so really the answer turns out to be more in fourth graders than it does the responsibility of the legislators. So, uh, it's, it's incredibly hopeful at the moment, I think. That there is a possibility for our young people to build a future in Wyoming, of their own making.

Emy diGrappa (12:41):

Well that, that is a, a challenge. Um, probably at the, you know, um, legislative level because there's so many other things that they deal with, as well as that. And h- how would you have them embrace economic diversification?

Fred Schmechel (13:03):

So the legislator's role in this is making sure that all of the infrastructure is there. So there's a, a tremendous program that just came about here, in this last year, from Wyoming Workforce Services and their Workforce Development Training Fund. It's an internship program that will reimburse some costs for, uh, hiring a Wyoming based student. High school, community college, or university student. Uh, and placing them with a small startup company and finding ways to continue supporting that program. Uh, and making sure that there are, are, uh, programs like it out there that can help these companies get up off the ground and engage our young people. Uh, I think is highly important.

                 Uh, I think that, uh, we need to reexamine how we're paying for the state. Uh, I mean right now, uh, I think that we are, you know, some cost into, uh, creating jobs versus bringing jobs to Wyoming i- is pretty, uh, drastic in their difference. Uh, we need to find ways to make sure that we're re-cooping those costs, as a state.

                 Uh, and, and I don't... I don't have the answer for what all of our revenue problems are going to be, but I suspect that like all companies that I counsel, they need to have a diverse line of income coming in. You don't just sell one product. Uh, you sell multiple products. You, you find multiple ways of making money. And I think the state really needs to embrace that. And we, we can't just go off of what we used to do. We actually have to go out and validate, uh, that what we've been doing is still the right thing to do.

                 And I think a lot of the, the anxiety that we feel in Wyoming, is coming from the fact that we're starting to realize that maybe what we've been doing is not what the market is actually saying we should be doing at this point.

Emy diGrappa (14:46):

Well, and, and... And thinking about yourself, as an artist, how are you helping artists succeed? How are you helping to sustain our creative economy?

Fred Schmechel (15:00):

So the creative economy is so linked into, uh, what I do. It's all about creating cultures of innovation and creativity. Um, theater companies are a great, uh, bellwether of how, uh, innovative a community is. There's, there's a... The USDA came out with some research here a few years ago, that directly tied the number of theater companies in a community to the number of patents that community produced. And the more patents that community produces, the more jobs that company's going to produce, or companies are going to produce, that'll create more jobs.

                 Uh, so they're, they're incredibly linked. Uh, and the simple fact is that people that are in the more technical industries, uh, the STEM fields, they are much more likely to engage in the arts than those who are not, uh, in STEM fields. So, uh, they wanna live in places that have tremendous arts culture. They, they wanna live in communities that are, are embracing of creativity and originality. Uh, and, and the art just built into the, the stereotypes of what we expect for these small communities.

                 I think that lots of resistance that we get from communities in Wyoming to change is that, that we don't wanna lose what we already have. And the answer is, fantastic, we don't wanna lose what we have either. But what are we doing to preserve what we have? Uh, I live here, in Laramie, and what I love about this town is... Uh, one of the things I love about this town is the mural project that we have here. Uh, that has so uniquely and, and completely tied in what we believe as a community, uh, over the past 10 years.

                 Uh, and, and helped us define who we are, and put those definitions out on display for everyone to see that we value originality, creativity. And we likely have, for a very long time. Uh, and I think that's, that's, uh, an approach that we need to look at in all of our communities in Wyoming, to see what can we do to preserve what we're doing to make sure that as things change, we can continue.

Emy diGrappa (17:00):

As you look out, uh, into the world and especially study what other communities are doing, um, in the United States or globally, even, what do you find as inspiration?

Fred Schmechel (17:15):

Oh, good question. Um... It's oftentimes difficult to equate Wyoming to other communities in the nation. Uh, or even around the world to some extent. Uh, I always like to, to... When I go to a conference or something like that, which I haven't been to in a while, but they always talk about rural economic development. And there they're talking about, you know, you know, people that live within an hour and a half of Nashville, that might own a horse trailer. That's what they're definition of rural is. There's probably still a million people within an hour and a half. Uh, and Wyoming's much more frontier than it is rural, when you look at that.

                 So we have to look for ways to, to stimulate things that aren't actually out there in the rest of the world. Uh, where I find a lot of my inspiration is by working with our young people. The people that haven't had no beaten into them yet. Uh, that, you know, they, they can try something bigger. Uh, I think that's, that's, that's where I find a lot of my inspiration.

Emy diGrappa (18:18):

So here's, here's something that just came to my mind because I like to think of myself as an entrepreneur.

Fred Schmechel (18:27):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Emy diGrappa (18:28):

And is there any kind of... Because it's... Your, your program's tied to UW and the community colleges. Right?

Fred Schmechel (18:42):


Emy diGrappa (18:42):

So how do you ha- How do you have older students, older entrepreneurs? People who have lived and wanna do something that they've always wanted to do. Do you have those kinds of people that enter into your programs?

Fred Schmechel (18:59):

We absolutely do. Our startup challenges are, are made for those people to get in. Uh, so a startup challenge is taking a group of people through this Lean Launchpad process, I was describing earlier, and, and helping them build a pitch deck, helping them build the confidence to give this pitch deck. Uh, and there's typically a cohort of five or so companies that, uh, ultimately make it through to the finals. Uh, they will pitch, typically on a theater stage if we can. Uh, especially in Sheridan. Sheridan at the WYO Theater, they love coming out to support their audience up there. Uh, Casper, we do it at The Lyric. And with [inaudible 00:19:32] we did it at the Atlas Theater here, this last year.

                 Uh, getting them engaged with their... Then they go before a panel of judges. And then they usually have a pool of award money, uh, that the judges can give out. And it usually starts at least around $25,000 for our smallest ones. Uh, Sheridan, I believe is up around $100,000. Casper is around 65. And Cheyenne, we just did 50 here, uh, less than a couple weeks ago. Uh, to, to help these companies start up. We target between $20 and $25,000 to help these companies get up and running. We find that that's a very effective number in helping a company get up off the ground.

                 It's not prize money. You can't take the money and go on a, a, you know, staff vacation to Honolulu for your board meeting, or what have you. Uh, there's, there's milestones that go along with it that you have to meet, in order to get all of it. Uh, or... So that you're staying on track. But that's, that's all predetermi- determined by the companies, uh, that we work with. And, and finding what fits for them to make them successful and move forward.

Emy diGrappa (20:34):

Well, just on a more personal level in terms of, um, you know, going back to your work as an artist. Is there a reason you didn't do this for yourself?

Fred Schmechel (20:47):

Uh, one, I didn't know about it. Uh, I mean I started 10 years ago as an intern, uh, here for the WTBC as a graphic design intern. It... My, my, my degrees were, uh, art history because that's where I thought the job was. Sculpture because that's what I was passionate about. And graphic design because I've always enjoyed eating and living indoors. Uh, and, and one of them ultimately paid off.

                 Uh, but I, I started as a graphics intern and, and worked my way up through, through several different levels to get where I'm at today. And I, uh, never really thought in-depth about how to go about. And I think that's, that's one of the challenges that, uh, artists, in particular, face. We, we get caught up in the meaning of the object. Uh, more than we get into the idea of, how do we make something that also appeals to someone else that we can get paid for? Uh, I think that, uh, we can make great art, and we can also make great art and make a living. I don't think that those things are, are mutually exclusive.

                 Um, and I, I, I have worked with a few artists over the years. Uh, we have one that's a photographer here, in Laramie. Uh, he is a fine artist, absolutely. That's, that's what his passion is. And he's found that, uh, if he spends a few weekends a year shooting photography for weddings that, uh, he's then able to afford the rest of the art that he wants to make. So he's, he's working 20 days a year, basically, as a wedding photographer so that he can work the other 345 as a, as a fine art photographer, uh, and make that living. Uh, and it's a quality living that he lives. And, and so he's able to give back to his community.

                 I think that's... Uh, that's, that's an equation that we have to make, uh, as artists if we're going to dedicate ourselves to our art. Is how do we find a path forward that works for us, and doesn't compromise the art? Uh, but maybe helps us inform how to make art, and what kind of art we have to make in order to be engaging.

Emy diGrappa (22:48):

Do you think that's a missing link in, um, at the university level for artists, who are getting their arts degree? That they, the don't also take business classes and learn, you know, just the idea of how to be a business and an artist.

Fred Schmechel (23:05):

Well, it's been a while since I've been an art student at the University of Wyoming. Um, but I do know that they have changed the program significantly since I was there. Uh, and that the art department, itself, now includes a, uh, art business class of some sort. Uh, but I think that, you know, having the ability to reach out and have that orthogonal thinking where, you know, I'm an art major, but maybe I take this business class. Or maybe I take a chemistry class so that it can relate back to something.

                 Uh, I think that that makes a stronger artist, uh, in order to do that. Uh, I don't know that it's missing. I think it's a personal choice. And I think that there is, there's some intimidation about reaching out beyond art and going into these other topics. I think that's, that's the most important part. I think diversified thinking is our answer.

Emy diGrappa (23:52):

So, um, how many brothers and sisters do you have, Fred?

Fred Schmechel (23:56):

Uh, well, um, I have an older brother and I had a younger brother who was my father's cat. So, uh, it was the cat that definitely made me the middle child. Uh, but Ajax, unfortunately, is no longer with us.

Emy diGrappa (24:10):


Fred Schmechel (24:10):

Miss him dearly.

Emy diGrappa (24:11):


Fred Schmechel (24:13):

Yeah. He lived a good solid 15 years. So he was a fun brother to have.

Emy diGrappa (24:18):

So is your family still in Cheyenne?

Fred Schmechel (24:21):

My folks are.

Emy diGrappa (24:22):


Fred Schmechel (24:23):


Emy diGrappa (24:25):

And I, I think, you know, growing up in Wyoming, what do you find is the most unique, intriguing thing about growing up in Wyoming?

Fred Schmechel (24:36):

Oh. The most unique. Um, I love the fact that no matter what community I go to, chances are I likely know somebody there. Uh, and so you're, you're never alone in Wyoming if you choose to be. Oh, it's, it's such a wonderful opportunity to meet great people from all across the state. Uh, and get connected with them and see how... See how your life matters and, and comes in contact with theirs. I think that's, that's a wonderful connection that we have that I think that is missed in some larger places that are even more densely populated, have that connection. Uh, you know, the running joke is, it's not [inaudible 00:25:17] Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, it's three degrees of Fred Schmechel.

Emy diGrappa (25:19):


Fred Schmechel (25:19):

No, I-

Emy diGrappa (25:19):

Three degrees of-

Fred Schmechel (25:21):

My, my, my colleagues in our Laramie office, who were not born in Wyoming, like to say. So...

Emy diGrappa (25:28):

How has the pandemic changed your, um, business and your work?

Fred Schmechel (25:34):

Uh, it's dramatically changed it. Um, so I won't say I'm, I'm... I, I, I call it live at work, not work from home. Uh, because it is very invasive into my life here, as one might imagine. I think lots of people are feeling that. But we've discovered that, uh, we can do this pretty effectively, uh, via Zoom calls, and email, and whatnot and stay on top of things.

                 Our, our most recent Southeast Wyoming Innovation Launchpad, I have yet to meet any of these entrepreneurs face-to-face. I was able to work with them pretty intensely for, uh, three, four, months and get 'em up to pitch night, which we also had virtually. I think that that's, that's a tremendous thing. And that's what's actually enabled us, uh, to get this large federal grant that was just announced here, in February, uh, to, to reach out across the rest of the state, uh, and open up our program beyond at the three centers that we were at. And to work with the community colleges.

                 So it's, it's had a dramatic impact in helping us understand how to use the technology to reach more people. And now that this grant's in place we're able to hire some more people so that we're able to reach more of the state. So it's, it's... Pandemic has had a major impact on IMPACT 307. We also rebranded during all of this. So...

Emy diGrappa (26:43):


Fred Schmechel (26:44):


Emy diGrappa (26:44):

That's interesting. I, I think if you have one thought of encouragement for young people, what would that be?

Fred Schmechel (26:56):

Celebrate being wrong because it means that you're... It's, it's just short cutting that, the process in which you're gonna make it right. Uh, you know, if you fail at something, it's totally a victory unto itself because you know what doesn't work, so you can try something else and learn from it. I'm, I'm so inspired by our young people. They're able to grasp that and realize that you, you don't have to... "Don't throw out the good to celebrate..." Or... What, what's the quote? Um, you know. "Don't throw out the good to achieve perfection," or something like that.

                 Uh, that good enough can be good enough in many cases. It doesn't have to be precise and perfect. You can... You can work on that later, but that first iteration, that's... Fail a few times to get there. It's more fun that way.

Emy diGrappa (27:45):

Right. We all have to start somewhere.

Fred Schmechel (27:48):

Yeah, precisely.

Emy diGrappa (27:49):

Well, it's been great talking to you today.

Fred Schmechel (27:53):

Been great talking to you, Emy.

Emy diGrappa (27:54):

Thanks, Fred.

Fred Schmechel (27:54):

Always love seeing you.

Emy diGrappa (27:55):

Thank you.

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